How to Build Trust at Work

HANNAH BATES: Welcome to HBR on Leadership, case studies and conversations with the world’s top business and management experts, hand-selected to help you unlock the best in those around you. Do you trust the people you work with? Without trust, organizational psychologist Liane Davey says it’s hard to have the two key ingredients for any healthy team: effective communication and productive conflict.  In this episode, Davey takes questions from listeners who are struggling to build trust at work.  She offers advice for what to do when your new boss doesn’t trust you, or when you want to earn the trust of people who work for you. And if your company leaders have fostered a culture in which employees are afraid to speak up, she also offers guidance for what she calls a “trust reset.” This episode originally aired on Dear HBR in March 2019. Here it is.

DAN MCGINN: Welcome to Dear HBR: from Harvard Business Review. I’m Dan McGinn.

ALISON BEARD: And I’m Alison Beard. Work can be frustrating, but it doesn’t have to be. We don’t need to let the conflicts get us down.

DAN MCGINN: That’s where Dear HBR: comes in. We take your questions, look at the research, talk to the experts and help you move forward. Today we’re talking about trust issues with Liane Davey. She’s an organizational psychologist and her newest book is called The Good Fight: Use Productive Conflict to Get Your Team and Organization Back on Track. Liane, thanks for coming on the show.

LIANE DAVEY: Oh, my pleasure. I’m glad to be here.

DAN MCGINN: So, why is trust such an essential ingredient at work? Why is it such a big issue for people?

LIANE DAVEY: Trust is really the basis of effective communication. Trust is the basis of having productive conflict. So, the reason it’s so important is because it underpins pretty much everything else we’re trying to accomplish in an effective team.

DAN MCGINN: Is that one of the things that makes it hard, that we want to have this thing now, but it’s one of these things you can’t really do quickly?

LIANE DAVEY: So, that’s such, you’re into the juicy stuff already Dan because, people get trust backwards. So, we think that trust is a characteristic of the other person, when really it’s something that goes on inside our own heads. So, we can give someone trust the moment we meet them. That’s our choice.

DAN MCGINN: So, it’s more reciprocal than people anticipate?

LIANE DAVEY: Much more reciprocal. And in fact, the ultimate control over trust lies in the trustor, not in the trustee. It’s you who decides whether you’re going to trust another person. And most of us, when we talk about it, we talk about it as if their behavior is what determines whether we trust them or not. Or, someone who is behaving well, but still you’re skeptical, or you’re not buying it, and you just don’t trust them. So, trust is a choice we make.

ALISON BEARD: Well, this will be fun. Let’s get to our first question. Dear HBR: I started a position eight months ago as a director at a nonprofit organization. I love my job and I’m grateful for it. There’s just one problem. The role requires me to work closely with the director in another area. She’s been with the company for over 20 years. She often tries to shift her responsibilities onto me. Particularly if it’s a task she doesn’t like doing. If I resist, express concern, or try to compromise with her, she immediately goes behind my back and talks with the boss to get her way. What’s worse is that this woman is best friends with another leader I report up to. That puts her in an even bigger position of power. She’s a gossip. I get the sense that when she’s trying to dump her work on me, she suggests to others that I’m not being a team player. I do my best to counteract the negativity that this other director spreads. But it is exhausting. I’m well liked in the office for the most part. I’ve also worked on building trust with my boss. However, I sense that he has loyalty to her. A couple of times I found out that my boss, my colleague, and her best friend had meetings that did not include me. So, I feel like an underdog here. Obviously, I’m new. This woman is using her years with the company and friendship with the bosses to push me around and I don’t feel like I can compete with that. How do I avoid being pushed around? How do I speak up in a situation where I feel like I’m not part of the in-crowd?

LIANE DAVEY: Oh, there is so much in that great letter. So, it’s a great example that we can talk through. So, where to start? Let’s start with the most basic idea, which is that we often get trust backwards and we wait for someone else to demonstrate to us that they’re trustworthy, rather than doing things ourselves that increase the other person’s trust in us. So, the first thing I’m going to really encourage her to do is to find some where she legitimately realizes this colleague knows more than she does, has more experience and to go out and ask for some help. That’s going to be one of the ways that the other person starts to trust her more and then we get into this virtuous cycle of trust, increasing trust.

ALISON BEARD: Isn’t this colleague already trying to shirk work? So is she going to be receptive to doing more for this new director, our letter writer?

LIANE DAVEY: It’s hard to know. But oftentimes people who have been established in an organization and then have the young whippersnapper arrive on the scene, feel threatened by that. And they try and figure out how much they can test the balance. How much work will she take on? How much can I get away with? But it’s quite possible that she’ll be willing to share her expertise, to show you how smart she is, to show you how much more she knows about the organization. So, I wouldn’t make the request something that’s going to require a lot of hard work and rolling up her sleeves, but if there are ways that you can ask for her advice, or her counsel, something she can easily do, that’s a place where being of assistance to you may help her trust you more.

ALISON BEARD: It’s really hard to start sucking up to someone that you don’t like and don’t trust though, isn’t it?

LIANE DAVEY: Yeah, and I’m glad you used the term sucking up because that’s where it won’t work. As soon as it’s sucking up, or manipulative, it won’t work. But if you can say to yourself, let me be honest with myself about what this person is good at, or what this person does know that I don’t know, she could really help me with X, Y, or zed and it’s that that I’m going to ask her to help me with.

DAN MCGINN: So, it’s interesting. You’re going straight to the relationship with this colleague whose sort of Tom Sawyering the work over to her. I wondered whether she needs to think about this trust with her boss. Why is it important to look at the peer relationship first?

LIANE DAVEY: First of all, she tells us that the boss and this other colleague do have a relationship. So, we know the boss is likely to have a bit of a bias toward the existing person. And so, if the boss sees her not getting along with this teammate who, there’s no reason to believe this teammate is an issue, then she’s going to bear the brunt of that evaluation from the boss. The second thing is, you have to be very, very careful in what you go to the boss with and how you raise the issue to the boss in early days so that you don’t seem like you’re unable to cope with interpersonal issues yourself. You don’t want to sort of look like a victim to the boss. So, it’s really important that the person do some things to make the situation better on their own as opposed to going straight to the boss.

DAN MCGINN: At the same time, she’s probably going to be doing check-ins with her boss. He’s probably going to be asking her how it’s going. What should she say? Should she pretend this isn’t going on? Is there some point on the continuum between complaining and pretending everything’s great?

LIANE DAVEY: Yes. Absolutely. And I would encourage her to make sure that the boss is informed that something is going on. The rule is that you’re sharing information very objectively and that what you’re asking the boss for is not to intervene at the outset, but instead to coach you. That’s going to make you feel like you take ownership of your own issues. That you’re on top of this. That you’re not a big drama person and all of those things will be really good for building your relationship and your trust with your boss.

ALISON BEARD: How much time should she give her efforts with the colleague before she has that type of conversation with the boss?

LIANE DAVEY: I think it’s OK to let the boss know that it’s going on. I’m bumping into a few folks who, I’m not sure that I’ve got the relationship off on a good foot, but I’m working on it. You can maybe allude to it like that. If the boss wants to know more, he’ll ask. If the boss is the type that doesn’t like drama, you may get a strong signal of good. I’m glad you’re dealing with that. The body language will shift. The eye contact will drop which says he doesn’t want to hear about it. Versus if you get a lot of empathy, imagine he may know that there are, that this colleague is a bit of a troublemaker, gives the newbies a hard time. It may be that he would be very keen to hear it and to actually get involved in course correction earlier rather than later. But otherwise, wait a couple of rounds of attempted feedback and conversation with the person before you then share, here’s what’s happening. I just wanted to let you know. Here’s what I’m doing. I don’t need you to do anything about it. I just wanted you to be aware. Then the next escalation is, this is what I’ve tried and I haven’t been successful yet. Can I have some coaching? And only once you believe that this is a toxic relationship that’s affecting the team, affecting the organization do you want to say, I can’t figure it out. I need help and escalate it to the point where you want some intervention from your manager.

DAN MCGINN: I don’t want anybody to feel like a doormat at work. At the same time, she is new. She’s trying to build relationships and establish credibility. Is there a case that she might just want to suck it up and take some of this extra work?

LIANE DAVEY: Yes. I think there’s room for that to a certain point. And the key point is that it never gets in the way of our letter writer accomplishing the things that she’s there to do. Because remember, she’s early on. She will be evaluated and watched more closely for her own output and productivity.

DAN MCGINN: At what point should our listener ask her boss really directly, where does my job end and this colleague’s job begin? Where is the line? Can you clarify our responsibilities here because I’m a little confused?

LIANE DAVEY: I think that’s a great thing to do really on. As soon as you start to have that moment where you’re scratching your head and thinking, that’s not how I understood my role. And ideally, that’s a conversation that’s best had with all of you in a room.

ALISON BEARD: That feels a little confrontational though. Sort of pushing this woman into a meeting whereby the boss is going to tell both of you that she should stop pushing her work to you.

LIANE DAVEY: It’s really all about the tone in a conversation like that. So, if the tone is light and positive, it’s just like OK, we’re just getting started here and there’s been a couple of things where I’m not sure who owns it and I just wanted to clarify with you. Can you just walk —

ALISON BEARD: Well, that sounds passive aggressive to me.

LIANE DAVEY: Oh, that’s interesting. OK. If that’s what your red flag is going up for passive aggressive, then you want to avoid it. The challenge is if you have that conversation first with your colleague and then she continues to ignore it, now when you engage the boss, it is going to be passive aggressive because it’s something that you tried to resolve and weren’t successful with the person. So, I think it’s legitimate to engage with your boss, having the conversation and just say, I just want to clarify. I need to understand who owns what.

This all comes back to our overarching topic of trust! When we have different expectations of a situation, that’s when we start to, where mistrust starts to creep in. So, if you can clarify, if you have the same expectation as the colleague and both of you have the same expectation as the boss of whose role includes what different tasks, that’s going to put you in a much better position to strengthen trust between you.

DAN MCGINN: Alison, what’s our takeaway on this?

ALISON BEARD: So, we think that our letter writer should just pause for a reset. She should understand that she has gotten off on the wrong foot with this colleague. We think that she should reach out to this other woman first. One way to do that would be to ask for advice or help that wouldn’t be onerous to her. Asking questions that draw on her experience. If she does need to push back about the fact that this woman is trying to offload work to her, she should just reinforce that it’s about her own workload because she needs to work on something that’s more important, or has a closer deadline. If after a few interactions with this woman, she feels it really isn’t working, she might want to talk to the boss. First and foremost to clarify roles. Then again, later if it’s necessary, to just explain that she’s running into trouble. She should stick to the facts of the situation, not her interpretations of it. She should focus not on the colleague’s negative behavior, but on herself and the impact that it’s having on her work, and she should ask for coaching on how to deal with it.

DAN MCGINN: All right. Letter number two. Dear HBR: I joined a large company in 2016 as a contractor. I was hired to help a specific initiative for a fixed period of time. My performance as an individual contributor was noticed. And since then I’ve been promoted three times. I’m 31. About 10 years younger than anyone else in the same position. Some of my peers and subordinates are 20 to 30 years older and have longer tenure than me. I’ve been noticing they tend to resent me. I’ve had a few direct conversations with some of these people. They talk about my young age and their sense that I haven’t paid my dues. I’m struggling to overcome this resistance. To be fair, I am fairly ambitious. I set lofty goals for myself. I’m also fairly direct and to the point. Could this be off-putting? I also worry that as a manager, I’m communicating differently with people based on their age and their tenure, which is a subtle form of discrimination. How can I be a better colleague and a better boss, especially across generations without sacrificing my own personal ambitions?

LIANE DAVEY: Oh, I think this is juicy and I relate. So, I was thinking as you were reading the letter about when I first joined my first job. I was 26 and I bumped into all these workers who were 20 or 30 years older than me, who all seemed to want to be paid for their perseverance. Like years of service awards and pay me because I hung in. And I wanted to be paid for my performance and what I contributed. And I was quite indignant about this for a long time until finally, I was a manager and the millennials started to come in and they wanted to be paid for their potential. So, they didn’t even care what they were doing in terms of performance. It was: Look, I’m so smart. You’re lucky to have me, so you should be paying me just for my potential. So, I relate. I understand that it can feel very different and I think some of it is about generations, but a lot of it is just about age and stage. So, let’s not overdo the baby boomer, Gen X, millennial thing and let’s just talk about individuals and people as much as we can.

ALISON BEARD: Our letter writer does seem to have some awareness that it’s not just his colleagues being grumpy and expecting to be paid for their tenure and promoted for their tenure. But also, he might have some culpability in this situation and that he’s not managed them very well.

DAN MCGINN: He talks about how his level of ambition and his directness could be off-putting to people. Do you think he needs to sort of tone down both of those things?

LIANE DAVEY: So, I wouldn’t tone down ambition. I would just say, put the ambition in context. So, what’s a healthy time horizon and to think, this person’s a leader. So, you have to think about not just your own time horizons, how fast you want the next promotion, but you lead a team and you have responsibility and an obligation to think about what’s the right pace and tone for the whole team and for the organization? So, you can be ambitious, but be ambitious in the context of being a great leader. So, that’s important. I think on the direct point, yes, it’s very common that you need to be a little bit more diplomatic, be a little bit more careful in how you share things because otherwise, people become defensive.

DAN MCGINN: I related to that piece of this letter. I get criticized sometimes because I tend to be super direct with people. At times it can be a little off-putting. And I tend to be somewhat self-deprecating about it and at least acknowledge that it’s there and that I’m doing it in an attempt to be super-efficient and to not sugar coat things. But I do empathize with this listener because I have some of that same behavior.

LIANE DAVEY: So, I actually think it’s such an important point. It’s not directness that is the big problem. It’s intensity. So, in a lot of unhealthy and unproductive conflict, we’re not direct enough. We beat around the bush. We sugarcoat things. We’re passive-aggressive. So, I’m going to encourage our reader to still be direct, but to actually bring down the intensity of his comments. And intensity is really about how personal is it, how assertive is it, how strong is it? So, you can go directly to the point, but ask a question. So, instead of saying, this is going to land terribly with our existing customers, which feels very strong. Instead, you can go, how do you think this is going to land with our existing customers? What might be the concern of communicating it this way to our existing customers?

ALISON BEARD: This all goes back to the issue of what’s the best way to earn trust with a group of colleagues who aren’t willing to give it to you yet. And I think that’s by demonstrating competence, but then also warmth and showing people that you care about their opinions.

LIANE DAVEY: Yeah, and a little empathy goes a long way. So, he’s told us that he’s been promoted three times, having come in as a contractor. So, just his very success could be triggering people’s insecurity, realizing that they’ve been lapped on the career track. Right? That was me and track as a kid when all of a sudden somebody comes around and passed me and I knew I was a whole lap behind. Well, that’s probably what it feels like for some of these folks who have seen him come in and be promoted three times. So, just a little empathy to understand that his success to other people may be hard to watch, by no fault of his own. Simply because of how it holds up a mirror to them.

DAN MCGINN: The situation also reminded of me that we probably all at some point in our careers have worked for sort of a rising star that feels like they’re just passing through and that they’re just in it for themselves. You can sort of almost see them just using this as a stepping stone to the next promotion. And I think anything he can do to counter that, to make this feel a little bit more like a team sport and less like an individual sport, and like the others have some vested interest in the success of the group might help as well.

LIANE DAVEY: Absolutely. So, the one thing no matter what generation we’re from, that we all have in common is we all like to be valued. Just like in our first letter, finding places where he can ask them to add value for him on things that they know more than he does. So, again, the same kinds of questions. How have you seen the organization evolve? What do you think is really important for us to hang onto as the organization grows? Those sorts of connection points will make it feel like not just that he’s stepping on their heads to get to the next level.

ALISON BEARD: Yeah, even delegating a bit more. Sharing some of this power that he’s gotten could be a really powerful way to show that he wants everyone there, including the people that have been there for a long time, to share in the success.

LIANE DAVEY: And when done well, delegation is the ultimate way of showing trust. Right? It says: Look, I have confidence in you. I trust you. And I want you to own this. And again, as we’ve talked about the more you show that you trust the other person, the more likely it is that they’ll trust you.

ALISON BEARD: That’s a great point, Liane. I think that we’ve published a lot of great research showing that one of the simplest ways to build trust is by finding areas of similarity. And that’s a lot of times really hard to do when people are 20 or 30 years older than you. So, how might he go about improving the relationships on that more personal, less professional side?

LIANE DAVEY: There are lots of fun activities you can do. There’s one that I really like which is just, it’s great for if you go for a team lunch or things like that. Which has just a few categories of places where you’re going to share with one another in a speed-dating format.

ALISON BEARD: But he doesn’t have to do something as formal as a team lunch to establish those connections, right? He can just do it on a one-on-one conversation?

LIANE DAVEY: Actually, there’s some new research out that eating, physically eating together is one of the best things we can do to build trust among a team of people. Grab some pizzas, pull everyone in a room. Have some of these light-hearted conversations and that will be one of the best things he can do to start to build trust.

DAN MCGINN: I think some of that research was done in firehouses and not only does eating together build trust but even better, if you make the food together, it seems to enhance trust. So, that can be a little bit hard to do in a work setting. But sometimes we’re seeing companies do off-sites where people will spend a couple of hours with some instruction, actually make a meal together because that preparing and consuming food is such a powerful bonding technique for humans.

LIANE DAVEY: Yeah.

ALISON BEARD: I feel like this might be too much for our letter writer to just go in tomorrow and say: Hey guys, we’re all going to a cooking class tomorrow! I feel like he needs to take a few baby steps first.

LIANE DAVEY: Yeah, I think, start with pizza. [LAUGHTER] But it wouldn’t, in my experience it wouldn’t be strange for a team leader to grab some pizzas and have a meeting over lunch. Maybe have a lunch and learn.

ALISON BEARD: Makes sense.

DAN MCGINN: One of the things I’m struck by is the last line in this letter. He says, how can I be a better colleague and a better boss without sacrificing my own personal ambitions? He seems to be operating under the theory that those are opposing things to make himself a better boss and make this team perform. It seems like he’s got sort of a false opposition there.

DAVIES:  Yeah. I think it is a false dichotomy. I don’t think it’s true and I think Alison commented on this before. The key thing is that they actually win together. That’s what will really work here. So, once he’s moved on and whatever, that all those members of the team say, that was some of the best years of my career, because we got so much done together. I felt like I was learning new things. I felt like I was being recognized and rewarded for the contributions that I made. Yeah, the key thing is he can win. He wants it to feel like they’re winning together.

ALISON BEARD: Great. So, Dan, what are we telling him?

DAN MCGINN: First we’re saying don’t get too hung up on this generational divide. Over time it becomes less important as personal relationships and trust develop. That’s especially true when the young person shows competence and expertise and shows that they can be trusted. In order to fulfill your ambitions, you’re going to need to be a good boss. Those things are connected. You’re going to be judged on whether you’re getting your team to perform. So, being a good boss is your job at this point. That’s what will get you to the next level. Try to bond personally with these people. Try to find common areas of connection. Maybe get outside the office. Maybe eat a meal together. Candor can be a good quality. But think about the intensity of it. Make sure that what you’re saying is constructive. Watch your criticism in particular. Don’t be passive aggressive. Be direct, but don’t be negative. Remember this is a team and you need this team to succeed.

ALISON BEARD: Let’s go to the third question. Dear HBR: I’m part of the early career talent at a large company that needs to change its culture. It used to be a boy’s club. Leaders suck the self-esteem out of employees for years. Now, we have new senior leadership. They know that you can attract better talent and be more competitive if you treat people better. But even though they’re addressing the toxic culture, it still doesn’t feel OK for employees to. People are willing to go to bat about projects and ROI’s, but not for better treatment and respect of co-workers, including women. Everyone is afraid of speaking openly. Those in the mid-ranks feel powerless to share their ideas and experiences. HR seems to be quietly intervening and transforming problem people, but without any transparency. My question is, what can I do? I want to build trusting relationships with my colleagues. I want to develop young talent. I want to bring in people who stand up for each other, but sometimes bad behavior happens in front of new hires. One time a leader made some off-color remarks in front of an interviewee. I privately mentioned to the job candidate that the organization is going through a culture change. I’m in a high visibility role at work and be guided up the path to management. I want to be a change agent. But I’m afraid that if I bring up these problems with co-workers or senior leaders that I’ll be labeled negative, or toxic myself. What can I do to make my company a more trusting and respectful place?

LIANE DAVEY: So, I think she’s going to do a lot of good in this organization and I’m really glad she’s there. So, that’s first off. I think it’s important to remember that change can be inherently threatening for people. So, for people who succeeded in the old system, like those, the guy with the off-color remarks, it’s a big threat to their status and power. But to the people who had sort of tucked in to keep themselves safe in the previous toxic culture, there’s anxiety associated with this change, just to do with the uncertainty and not knowing if it’s sort of safe to come out yet. So, a big dose of empathy, lots of patience and it sounds like she’s the right person here for the assignment.

ALISON BEARD: But are you advocating that she be more patient about pushing change?

LIANE DAVEY: No. I want her to be active. I don’t want her to be passive about it. It’s just, I’m going to give her some tips about how to do that in a way that’s going to be really positive for introducing the new way, without being threatening or judgmental to the old way. Because that’s where she’s going to erode trust with the old guard and that could cause lots of trouble.

DAN MCGINN: What are the tips?

LIANE DAVEY: So, the first thing is when you’re trying to create change, the mistake is to focus on what’s wrong with the present. That’s where we get into judgment. That’s where we create defensiveness and that’s where we kill trust. So, instead, you want to focus on the future. Talk about what you’re looking for. We’re looking for this. This is what good looks like. This is the kind of thing that we’re all rallying around. That sort of language. The other thing that can be really helpful is to tie the change to something outside of the organization. So, instead of saying there’s something wrong with our people, or with our culture and therefore we have to change it, it can be really useful to say, here’s how our business is changing. Here’s how our industry is changing. Here’s how disruptors are changing our customer’s expectations and because of those changes outside, in the future, we need to be more of this, or more of that. What that does is it makes the excuse for behavior change external, which is less threatening than saying we were screwing it up and we have to change. It says, no, no. It’s just the world is moving to a new place and because of that, we need to do things differently.

DAN MCGINN: It seems like especially because the example in this letter is off-color remarks in a job interview setting, it seems like the #MeToo movement would give a great example of how the world has changed and an issue that used to not be something people wanted to stand up about is on the front pages of newspapers every day. Is that something she should be explicitly invoking here?

LIANE DAVEY: I think she has to be a little careful. I think when there’s a quiet moment behind closed doors with someone who’s equally as much future oriented as she is, yes. She can say: Look, we have to be courageous. There’s a lot happening in the world today that says we can talk about things in a way that we couldn’t before. But throwing #MeToo at a senior person, that is going to create defensiveness. So, I would be talking about, I would really like to think that everyone will feel safe and confident in the workplace. So, you can talk about the future, but I wouldn’t do something that would seem like a threat to a member of the old guard. The other thing is important to say is if this behavior ever crosses into harassment, it is absolutely critical that this person report that behavior to HR. If HR doesn’t give the response that she’s looking for, that that get escalated to someone very senior in the organization. There is zero room. If these off-color remarks are happening in front of a candidate, an interview candidate for a job, that’s a very risky behavior that could affect the reputation of the organization.

ALISON BEARD: Liane, I’m glad that you mentioned the word courage because I really think that’s what it’s going to take on the part of our letter writer. Because there will be some pushback if she wants to be a change agent. We published a piece by Jim Detert at [University of Virginia] Darden [School of Business] who has studied people who are competently courageous. That is, they’re very successful in their efforts. And he found that they have established they excel at their jobs and that they’re invested in the organization which I think our letter writer has absolutely done. She’s clearly a high potential. She’s on the track to management. They ask themselves, is this really important and is this the right time? And I think the answers to both those questions for our letter writer is yes. And then, when they’re talking in the moment, they frame their issue in relatable terms, they cite data. And I think that is the real key here. She knows that she should be doing these things. So, how do you do it in a way that will be effective and sort of make you have that bravery to speak up because you know that it’s going to work?

LIANE DAVEY: I think this is where building a coalition of people you trust, of people who are part of the new guard, where you have a safe place to close a door and if you need to vent, to vent without gossiping. Just one quick point because venting and gossiping are very different in how they affect trust. So, if you need to vent, go in and talk about how something is affecting you. Don’t talk about someone who’s not in the room. So, build a coalition. Have a safe place to vent. Talk about how you’re experiencing this. If you’re getting exhausted, have a place where you can bolster each other. Say how about this? Try this. Those sorts of things.

ALISON BEARD: How does she avoid, though, creating an old tribe and a new tribe?

LIANE DAVEY: I think that’s why we want to keep everything so forward-looking. Because there’s some chance that some of the old tribe will choose to come along. So, you’re inviting them to say, this business was so successful in the era that we’ve just come through, now I’m really interested in what it’s going to take for us to be as successful in the future. How do you think it’s going to take different behaviors? What are we going to have to do differently? So, all of that invites those people to come with you. To a certain extent though, if the behavior is that toxic, there’s some chance there will be an old guard and a new guard. Thankfully, she tells us that HR is trying to weed out as much of the old guard as possible. So, over time that effect should be diluted.

DAN MCGINN: She says that there’s new senior leadership here and they seem intent on changing this toxic culture. How much of what she has to do here is just trust that the people at the top really do want to change things and be patient while they go about doing it?

LIANE DAVEY: I’m glad that she does seem to trust the people at the top, but the culture won’t change just from the senior executives saying it’s so. So, we want her trusting them and being very active and bolstering them and giving them a real champion in the organization. And because she’s early career talent, she’s in a great spot to spread that same word that they’re spreading to a much deeper level of the organization. So, it’s a trust and! Trust and help it along. Take every touch point she’s got to help share that same message as well.

ALISON BEARD: And then by in so doing she’s going to build trust with all of these new hires and support of colleagues who are keen to help change the organization with her.

LIANE DAVEY: I think they’re going to see her as somebody who is a great advocate, who is wise, has good judgment about picking battles and is really going to bat for a company they all want to be a part of. So, yep, I think in the end she’s going to end up being one of the people that people in the organization just really, really trust.

DAN MCGINN: So, Alison, what are we telling this change agent?

ALISON BEARD: First and this is something she probably already realizes. Organizational change is inherently anxiety-inducing. So, it’s a situation that she has to navigate carefully, both with the old guard and the new. She should talk to her colleagues in a way that’s positive about the new model without being negative about the old one. And she should make sure that she links it to the business environment and the organization’s success. It will take courage. If she sees harassment she should absolutely report it. On other issues, she can probably work more subtly. Talking with her older colleagues about the way that changing their behavior will benefit the team in the future and possibly thinking about building a coalition of like-minded people, inviting them to be change agents with her. Ultimately she should understand that change will not happen just from the top down. She’s in a great position to help it become a place where colleagues do trust each other and help people move forward together.

DAN MCGINN: Liane, so great to have you. Thanks for coming on the show.

LIANE DAVEY: My pleasure. Thanks, Dan and Alison. It was great.

HANNAH BATES: That was organizational psychologist Liane Davey – in conversation with Alison Beard and Dan McGinn on Dear HBR. Davey is the author of the book The Good Fight: Use Productive Conflict to Get Your Team and Organization Back on Track. We’ll be back next Wednesday with another hand-picked conversation about leadership from the Harvard Business Review. If you found this episode helpful, share it with your friends and colleagues, and follow our show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. While you’re there, be sure to leave us a review. We’re a production of the Harvard Business Review – if you want more articles, case studies, books, and videos like this, find it all at HBR dot org. This episode was produced by Curt Nickisch, Anne Saini, and me, Hannah Bates. Ian Fox is our editor. Music by Coma Media. Special thanks to Rob Eckhardt, Adam Buchholz, Maureen Hoch, Adi Ignatius, Karen Player, Ramsey Khabbaz, Nicole Smith, Anne Bartholomew, and you – our listener. See you next week.