How to Become More Persuasive at Work

HANNAH BATES: Welcome to HBR On Leadership, case studies and conversations with the world’s top business and management experts, hand-selected to help you unlock the best in those around you. We all need to be persuasive. Maybe you’re trying to get clients to buy into your idea, trust your expertise, or sign on with your company. Or perhaps you want to convince colleagues to start a new initiative, or kill one you think is doomed to fail.  Today we bring you a conversation about how to build influence at work – with the help of Vanessa Bohns, a professor of organizational behavior at Cornell University and the author of the book You Have More Influence Than You Think: How We Underestimate Our Power of Persuasion, and Why It Matters,  and Raven Hoffman, who works in a construction role that involves recruiting new clients to her firm. In this episode, you’ll learn which persuasion tactics are the most effective and how to tell if someone is being swayed by your reasoning. And if you’ve failed to persuade someone but still believe in the cause, you’ll learn some smart tactics for trying again. This episode originally aired on Women at Work in April 2022, as part of a special series called “The Essentials.” Here it is.

AMY GALLO: You’re listening to Women at Work from Harvard Business Review. I’m Amy Gallo. Raven Hoffman, like a lot of us, is trying to figure out how to better persuade others. She works in the construction industry as a senior estimator at a tile and stone contractor.

RAVEN HOFFMAN: I spend my entire day looking at blueprints pricing things out, convincing guys I know what I’m talking about, telling the guys what to do so that they do it right when they get to the job. Not much time at my desk, I get up and I’m out in the warehouse looking for stuff, I’m on the phone calling people. Most of my day is putting out fires.

AMY GALLO: Construction is one of the most male-dominated industries in the world. Raven has been in it for twenty years thriving and with no plans to leave. Lately, though, she’s been struggling with a new important part of her job, selling people she hasn’t met before on doing business with her and her company. Conversations and meetings she’s initiated haven’t consistently forged the sorts of trusting relationships that lead to contracts. xBut Raven’s determined to become more persuasive with prospective and existing clients, as well as with long time colleagues. So, she was excited, as was I, to talk to and learn from a woman who studied and mastered this skill. Vanessa Bohns is a social psychologist. She teaches at Cornell and is the author of the book, You Have More Influence Than You Think: How We Underestimate Our Power of Persuasion and Why it Matters, and she’s here with advice for pitching ideas, preempting people from doubting your expertise and getting coworkers to start or stop doing something. Raven, Vanessa, thank you so much for joining us on the show today.

RAVEN HOFFMAN: Thank you for the invitation.

VANESSA BOHNS: Yeah. Thanks so much for having me.

AMY GALLO: So, Raven, I want to start with you and understand a little bit more about your work and where exactly you feel like you have influence and where you think you currently lack influence.

RAVEN HOFFMAN: So, I am fortunate. The company I work for, the current ownership came on when their grandmother was running the company; they believe in hiring strong women. They believe in letting us do what we do best. So, I feel they listen within the company. So often externally, my knowledge seems to be under question.

AMY GALLO: Is that with customers, with subcontractors?

RAVEN HOFFMAN: Customers. So often I will call with an issue on a project to say, “I foresee this as an upcoming problem,” and the response I will get is, “Hey, is your boss there? Can I talk to him about it?” Usually I transfer them over to him and he laughs at them and says, “You need to talk to Raven. She knows what’s going on more than I do,” and sends them back. But I think they’ve already disengaged from me as an authority who knows what she’s talking about.

AMY GALLO: Okay. So, Vanessa, in your research, you explore people’s perception of their influence and how that compares with reality. Your book is called You Have More Influence Than You Think. What did you hear in Raven’s answer there that speaks to the common perceptions or misperceptions that women tend to have about their power to be persuasive?

VANESSA BOHNS: So, I definitely hear some elements of the difference between the way we use stereotypes to understand people we don’t know well. If I go into an interaction with someone and I don’t know how to behave with this person, I don’t know what I think of this person, stereotypes guide us in a sort of way of thinking about this person and how this interaction is going to go, and unfortunately, still in many places in the world, seeing a woman brings to mind the stereotype that they don’t have as much expertise as me, particularly if it’s in a field that it tends to be a male dominated field. On the other hand, describing these people who really do know you, who know that you have this expertise or you have these established relationships, now they don’t need to rely on a stereotype, right? They actually know you they’ve gotten to know you. So, this is very sort of classic way of coding people that we don’t know. One of the things that women tend to get sort of dinged on, in terms of the stereotypes, is this idea that we aren’t authorities on something. Again, particularly if it’s in a sort of male dominated field.

AMY GALLO: Like construction, right?

VANESSA BOHNS: Exactly. Right. So, one thing that we know from the influence literature is that we listen to people who we think are authorities. If someone we think knows what they’re talking about, tells us that we should do something, not surprisingly, we assume that we should do it more so than if we think, oh, this person doesn’t know what they’re talking about. But women often face this sort of double whammy. So, there’s this coding of like, Okay, this person is not as much of an authority as maybe their male counterpart. But women also often struggle to profess their own authority. I was part of something called the op-ed project, where we learn how to write op-eds to get more female and underrepresented minorities into public discourse, and one of the activities they had us do was to establish our authority. Why am I the one to write this op-ed? So, we would go around the room and we would say, “Here’s who I am. I went to this school, I have this background…” and women with these extraordinary backgrounds would play them down. Women who had done amazing things were like, “yeah, I know how to do this little thing,” when in fact they had studied it for, like, ten years and were masters at it. So, one thing women can struggle to do at times is to make up for that authority gap that we’re missing by actually professing our authority by saying, “Hi, I’m so and so. Here’s my long list of expertise and this is why I’m talking to you.” Right? To say, “Okay, you may have had a stereotype about me. We’re going to get rid of that right here and now, and I’m going to tell you exactly why I have the authority to be talking to you.” At the same time, women tend to hesitate to do that. So, in this case, the fact that they’re just saying, “you should talk to Raven,” without giving you that buildup… I think it’s kind of putting you at a disadvantage.

AMY GALLO: Raven, how do you introduce yourself when you’re working with new clients? Have you tried what Vanessa’s describing?

RAVEN HOFFMAN: I have not, and I’m really intrigued about what that would end up looking like in a conversation – to not come across as arrogant and, “Hey, I know you’re new. So let me pile on you how many years I’ve been doing this and how much I know,” and then try to build the relationship, is how I perceive something like that. So, I’m wondering how you would work that into the conversation and have that dialogue without coming across as arrogant.

VANESSA BOHNS: That’s exactly why the women in my group hesitated to talk about all their accolades was because they were worried they were going to come across as bragging and arrogant. Really what people often talk about when we’re judged by other people, we’re judged on two main things: warmth and competence, and women tend to be judged even more on warmth. So, if we overplay our competence, people think we’re cold and that’s where we come across as arrogant, et cetera. So, the best way, unfortunately, to sort of counteract that is to couple your expressions of competence with something warm. So, it could be something like, “I am so excited to work with you because I have worked with so many other clients, I have worked with these big clients,” or whatever it is that sounds really good. “I have been working in this field for fifteen years or twenty years because I just love it, and so I can’t wait to work with you.” So, something that says, “look at all this experience I have,” but in this warm, friendly, cooperative sort of way.

AMY GALLO: How does that land with you, Raven?

RAVEN HOFFMAN: I like that. I can do that.

AMY GALLO: Yeah. I mean, I can even imagine something simple – and Vanessa, tell me if this would work – but even saying, “I’ve been assigned to this project because I’ve done 4,000 just like it. I’m really excited to collaborate with you to get your project done on time and under budget,” or whatever metrics matter to your clients. What do you think of that?

VANESSA BOHNS: Yeah, I think that would be great. As you said, you want to know the metrics that matter to them – like what would establish to them that you’re an expert and you put that out there and you just add something that says, “and I’m telling you this so that we can have a great relationship, and so I can be helpful,” and I think that gets that across for sure.

AMY GALLO: Raven, I can imagine that you do a lot of influencing already. Can you tell me about a time where you needed to persuade people at work to either do something or to stop doing something and it was successful?

RAVEN HOFFMAN: Most recently there was a product line that I wanted to bring back on that we had carried for a while and did not. I went in, presented the facts of what products they had that were good that filled gaps. I stuck to the facts. I knew what I needed to present, and we brought the line back on. It has worked very well for us.

AMY GALLO: And can you give us an example of a time where it didn’t go so well?

RAVEN HOFFMAN: Yes – with my coworkers and emails and “do not reply all.” I have requested quite a few times that we don’t all need to be on these back and forth conversations between two people. If you’re having this conversation… I get a hundred plus emails a day easily. Nno one listens, and unfortunately, I’ve had a few meltdowns over it, which I’m sure did not help the persuasion. I was hoping that it was just going to be one of those things where, Raven’s had a meltdown. We don’t want another one. Let’s quit doing this. That didn’t work either work.

AMY GALLO: So, what do you hear in those two examples, Vanessa, about what worked and why, and what didn’t work and why?

VANESSA BOHNS: Yeah. It’s interesting because they are pretty different influence topics, right? One is about facts, and I imagine you sort of outlined, “here’s this thing I think we should do” to a group of people who probably were pretty expert in what you were talking about. Right? They probably knew quite a bit about it already. There’s work on the difference between when we try to influence someone on something that they know really well and care about quite a bit, and when you’re trying to do that, you really want to stick to the facts like you said, and come up with arguments because they’re going to get it. They know the counterarguments, they know their facts, they know how to interpret the facts you’re giving them and they care enough. Then there are other kinds of things we try to influence people about where they’re less expert or less invested is a big part. Right? They just don’t care that much, and so often in those cases, the facts are not going to get them to go along with you. It’s all these other sort of peripheral aspects. It’s just, are other people going along with what you said? I’m not going to pay that much attention to all your arguments for why I should do this. But as long as I know that, like, Bob is doing it, I’ll do it.

AMY GALLO: Well what about the reply all situation? Why do you think Raven was less successful there?

VANESSA BOHNS: That one I actually fascinated by because that just sparks my curiosity. Why don’t they stop doing it? Is it because they actually aren’t persuaded that they should? Is this a question of persuasion or is it something else? Is it a question of motivation or just the ease? Are they forgetting? Do you have any insight into why they haven’t stopped doing it?

RAVEN HOFFMAN: It’s easier to just hit reply all than to reply just to one person.

VANESSA BOHNS: Interesting,

AMY GALLO: In that case, what would be persuasive? And it’s funny. I know this example is, I think some might say silly, but I actually think this is something people deal with all the time. As someone who talks about conflict and difficult coworkers, I hear about the reply all messages all the time. So, I do think this is quite relevant. So, what would be persuasive?

VANESSA BOHNS: As I said, it sparks my curiosity because I can’t imagine that the reason is that they feel strongly about being able to reply all. It must be sort of an automatic behavior that they’re not even thinking about it in the moment, and so those are the kinds of things where you want to be able to change either just the default response, the norm of everybody, so that when you’re about to hit that, you’re like, “oh wait, I don’t want to be that person who hits reply all because there’s this norm that’s not a good thing to do.” Or, it could just be one of these things where it really is, they need a reminder, they forget, right? So, putting something in a signature line or putting something on people’s computers like a sticky note, something that just… It sounds like it could just be a habit that they don’t care enough to break. So, I think the ways to break habits are either to make them more automatic, right? The opposite habit, more automatic. So, you kind of get rid of just that default click, or you make it so counter normative to do that thing, that people actually do care enough to stop before they hit that button. Right? I know that enough people make fun of you here if you hit reply all, that no one wants to do that, and so many times I have actually triple-checked to make sure I didn’t accidentally hit reply all, but that’s because of a norm that’s been set. So, you could do something where you start teasing people who don’t know how to not hit reply at all, or just get some people to stop doing it, and then eventually other people stop doing it.

AMY GALLO: Yeah. Vanessa, can you tell us about an experience you’ve had recently where you’ve had to persuade someone or a group and how you used your own research to be effective at it?

VANESSA BOHNS: I was thinking actually about this person I used to work with when I first came to the job I have now, who is an incredible persuader. He just could get any group to sort of see his version, and when I first came to the job I have now, we would get together as a group and decide on a candidate to hire – that was a common thing, or a graduate student to admit… those kinds of decisions. My expectation was, we’re all going to go into this meeting and we’re all going to lay out our ideas and who we think should be the candidate, and then we’re going to make a decision right then. But I quickly learned that so much of what happened in that meeting was predetermined by all the leg work that person would do before the meeting, and it really made me realize that so much of influence is these informal conversations that you have to get people on your side, this coalition-building and setting the stage for arguments that are going to be made, and less about that sort of formal presentation. I had in my head that, like, almost movie version of someone stands up in the front of the room, gives this big presentation, and everybody’s like, “That’s the one,” and clapping. It’s this kind of formal persuasive attempt, but so much was about garnering support before you went in so that once you got into that meeting, you knew who was on your side already and you could kind of point to them. So, you could say like, “So-and-so, and I really think this person’s the best.” Right? Now, all of a sudden you’ve got a little team that’s started the momentum in that meeting. You also have done your reconnaissance so you know what people’s objections are going to be. So, you know that so-and-so cares about this and they’re probably going to say that, and so-and-so cares about this and they’re probably going to say that. So, you kind of are already lined up to be able to have a counter argument. Then you also know who’s not going to care. As long as the rest of the group is going in this direction, this person’s just going to go in that direction as well. So, now I realize that almost all of, say maybe 90%, of the attempt to persuade in a meeting happens before that meeting.

AMY GALLO: Raven, is that a tactic you’ve used? Sort of, the meetings before the meeting.

RAVEN HOFFMAN: Absolutely. Generally, if I know I’m going to be meeting with a group of people, especially if there’s somebody new in there, I kind of get a feel for who they are from people that know them. So, I know what to talk to and how to present. Some people are going to want more facts, more detail, some are going to want it as short as possible so they can get on with the rest of their day, and some are going to be entirely focused on building a relationship and not care about any of the facts. So, it’s really determining what your audience needs before you get into that meeting.

VANESSA BOHNS: So, this is kind of how I think about it, and I’m curious if this works with customers as well: pre-selling before you get into that meeting. I feel like in many cases, people feel cornered if you just give them all the information. They didn’t have anything before and you expect them to kind of make a decision there, and that’s really hard to get people to actually commit in that moment. But if you kind of pre-sell it and you’re like, “this is what I’m going to present to you,” and they’ve kind of got their mind halfway made up already. It’s so much easier in that moment to sort of close and get them the rest of the way. Would you agree with that too? Or…

RAVEN HOFFMAN: Absolutely, and I usually don’t anticipate leaving a meeting with an answer. I anticipate leaving the information with the clients and probably getting another week’s worth of questions after it.

AMY GALLO: Raven, other than the reply all situation, are there other things that you’d like your team or company to start doing or stop doing that you haven’t yet pushed for?

RAVEN HOFFMAN: I have been saying for years that we need to be more proactive about getting in with the trade schools and the high school trade programs to recruit staff, and for a lot of times I’ve just been shut down on it. It’s kind of a perception of not being quality people in those programs. Having come from an alternative school background, I highly disagree.

AMY GALLO: Yeah. Where do most employees come from now, Raven, if they’re not from these trade schools or high schools?

RAVEN HOFFMAN: At the moment, nowhere. We’re not getting applications, we’re not having any luck. We’re trying all sorts of things we have not in the past. It used to be entirely word of mouth and reference.

AMY GALLO: Right. Vanessa, any advice for Raven on how she might push this issue?

VANESSA BOHNS: Sure, and first I’ll say that it’s great that she wants to keep pushing it. Because I do think that a lot of people here know or don’t get an enthusiastic enough sort of response and assume that no is forever or there’s no way they’re going to change this person’s mind, when that’s really rarely the case. So, I think it’s great that you do want to keep pushing forward once you do have the time. I think one piece of advice that we give in negotiations a lot, if you’re kind of at a stalemate, is to ask the other party for advice – something that Zoe Chance calls “the magic question,” which is basically saying to someone, “What would it take for you to actually consider people from trade schools? What would it take for you to agree with this thing that I’m coming to you with?” What that does is that brings the other party to your side, right? So, now it’s not like a confrontation. I’m trying to convince, you’re pushing back. Right? Now, we’re both going to look at this problem from the same side and you might get some insight into the hesitations and they might even be more willing to reflect on their hesitations than you would otherwise get. Right? When you’re playing a guessing game of, I say this, and then I see if that resonates with you or not. Right? It may be that they come them back and say, “Well, if I saw this kind of data, maybe I would consider it. If I saw competitors using people from trade schools, maybe I would consider it. If you could get so-and-so on board, maybe I would consider it,” and maybe you wouldn’t have thought of one of those things. It also kind of gets them thinking a little further down. Right? So, there is a way I might consider it and it sets up an expectation. If they say, “If you could show me this, I would consider it.” Okay. Find that, and now they’ve already kind of pre-committed. So, now you have, sort of, already gotten them a little closer towards your position.

RAVEN HOFFMAN: Awesome. I can definitely do that. Vanessa, I have a question for you. I’m largely an introvert and I’m not good with soft skills. So, I’m not always good at picking up on the nonverbal cues. So, anything that can help me know what I need to be looking for other than the really blatantly obvious arms crossed, leaned away, fidgeting – what are some smaller cues out there that might indicate that I’m not being as persuasive as I would like to be?

VANESSA BOHNS: Ultimately, it’s actually really hard for people to say no, and to kind of come out and tell you, “I don’t like what you’re selling me. I don’t agree with the things that you’re saying.” Often people will sort of hem and haw instead of actually coming out and saying, “forget about it,” because people are polite at the end of the day. People want to be agreeable. They don’t want to be disagreeable. So, I do think you kind of have to look in many cases for these non-verbals – these kind of hesitations and try to lock in some enthusiasm for something. Get them talking about some real problem that they have or something they really don’t about their current situation. Something that gets them out of this sort of defensive, “I don’t want to say no, but I also don’t want to say yes,” kind of thing, and gets them opening up a little bit and maybe sharing a little bit of the problems they have, and the ways in which you could then jump in and talk about your solutions.

RAVEN HOFFMAN: Yeah.

AMY GALLO: Are there questions that people who don’t feel confident reading non-verbal cues – are there questions that you can ask to take temperature along the way to see how is this going? Again, if you’re not confident reading someone’s body language, can you be a little more explicit?

VANESSA BOHNS: I think you can be explicit, and there’s research showing actually that we hesitate to ask people questions because we think they’re going to be hesitant to answer them. But in fact, the best way to get insight into how someone’s feeling is to ask them. There’s other research showing that if you tell people, try to figure out what’s going on in this person’s mind. We think that we know what’s going on. We think we can read body language, but we’re actually pretty bad at it, and our guesses are often wrong. But if you just tell people, “ask this person what they think, ask what’s on this person’s mind,” of course, all of a sudden they’re so much more accurate because the person is quite willing to open up and say “Well, actually I wasn’t so sure about this thing that you were saying,” or, “Here’s my hesitations,” or, “Here’s the person I would have to convince.” Right? Now you kind of know what you’re dealing with. So, I definitely would say, if you can ask an open-ended question that’s like, “how do you see this potentially applying to your situation? Are you hearing things that you like in this or things that you’re not so sure about,” is a great way to take their temperature.

AMY GALLO: If this is something you’re working on and you want to be more persuasive at work, you’re going to be looking for opportunities to do this and it can feel like you’re pushing, pushing, pushing. Can you talk about, Vanessa, how pulling back on an effort or even letting an issue go all together is actually part of the skill or part of the tactic that can be effective.

VANESSA BOHNS: Yeah, it’s funny. We really have this sort of need for closure and to feel effective when we’re trying to persuade someone., and so we kind of want to know right away that we’ve made some progress at least, or that we’ve gotten somewhere and often people aren’t ready to show that, and we have to give them space to digest. But we also want to keep what we’re trying to persuade them of top-of-mind. So, gentle check-ins can be helpful. This is another sort of skill that comes from Zoe Chance – saying, “Can I follow up with you in a few days?” Or, “Can I follow up with you next week?” That says, I’m going to give you space and time to think about this, to digest what I’ve said. You’ve given me permission to follow up so I’m not just annoying you by following up. Then you can keep it top-of-mind and give them a little space. The research shows that if we’re given the chance to try to persuade someone who is completely against what we want to persuade them to believe, or someone who’s actually kind of close to what we want to persuade them to, we want to persuade the person who’s totally on the opposite side. We want to feel that satisfaction of like, I flipped that person, right? We just want that satisfaction. But in fact, it’s so much easier to persuade the person who’s closer and you’re more likely to be successful, but we tend to not derive the same kind of satisfaction. I think it’s a similar thing. It’s like, I want that “yes” right now. Right? But sometimes we just need to relax and take the small wins and take the tiny steps that are getting someone a little bit closer to where you want to close them, and be okay with patience and space.

AMY GALLO: One of the pieces of advice I’ve heard given often in sort of negotiation context, that is if you want to persuade someone, you need to demonstrate that you yourself are persuadable. Is that advice that you agree with Vanessa? And if so, how do you show that you’re willing to change your mind?

VANESSA BOHNS: Yeah, I do think that’s a really helpful sort of tactic, because one of the fundamental aspects of human behavior is reciprocity. So, I give a little, you give a little. Right? Once I give, you feel this kind of urge or this need to give a little back. No one wants to be the jerk who like… you just made this major concession and now I’m just going to stand my ground. Right? It also, I think, makes the other person feel listened to, right? If you can give something, it shows that, actually, you’re not just in it for yourself. That makes it a more cooperative integrative kind of discussion, which I think we tend to forget when we’re trying to persuade someone. We think we’re on two sides, and I’m just trying to push and you’re pulling or whatever. But when you give a little, it says, “I see your side, I am willing to consider this integratively. I’m willing to give up a little bit myself. Now, what are you willing to do?” It becomes more of a cooperative discussion.

RAVEN HOFFMAN: One of our company owners says that quite often with customers, I go from their salesperson Raven, to, by the end of the project, I’m their friend Raven. Well, if I’m their friend, they’re going to be more likely to refer me. So, it is getting to that point where they realize I do actually care. You cannot fake wanting someone to have a successful project, and they feel that.

VANESSA BOHNS: Yeah.

AMY GALLO: Yeah.

VANESSA BOHNS: So many people are uncomfortable with things like negotiation. So many people are uncomfortable with sales, and I think part of it is that discomfort makes us think of one-shot interactions. I’m just going to get in there. I’m going to do it. I’m going to make the sale. I’m going to convince someone. I’m going to get it done. When in fact, the best kinds of sales and negotiations are long term relationships, right? They’re not one-shot interactions, and as soon as you start thinking of it like that – the next time I have to sell to this person, the next time we negotiate – it changes the way you approach the one that you’re in right now, I think, for the better.

AMY GALLO: Vanessa, let’s say you have tried to persuade your boss or your team to do something and it hasn’t gone well. You’ve failed. Maybe we even talk about the reply all situation here… but you still believe it’s a cause worth pursuing or pushing. What should you do before you try again before you sort of get back in there? What do you do in your mind, or in terms of preparing yourself, to be more effective the next time around?

VANESSA BOHNS: I definitely think that this is a case where I would try to generate as much curiosity as possible because especially if I think it’s an important enough issue that I’m willing to go back and push for it, but other people don’t seem to see my side, I’d be really curious. What’s happening? What’s keeping people from doing this. How are they seeing things so differently for me? I would definitely get into question-asking mode. I would probably take a step out of my initial, I’m going to change things, I’m going to persuade kind of mode and get into, okay, I’m going to understand, I’m going to ask questions. I’m going to go and say, “I’m curious, why do you hit reply all? What is it that happens in that moment?” I think that’s where you really learn what it is that are the actual barriers to getting them to see your side, and you might actually learn that there is an advantage. They’re getting something out of doing this their way that I didn’t see, and I didn’t understand, maybe, and I find a way for them to still get that thing and still get what I need, as well. So, I think a lot of what you do next is dependent on the answers you get from those follow-up interviews after you’ve failed to persuade.

AMY GALLO: Before we wrap up, Raven, what are you taking away from this conversation? What do you feel like you might do differently?

RAVEN HOFFMAN: I’m definitely going to work on building allies when I’m going into conversations and meetings with new people. I’m going to keep in the front of my mind becoming that authority, and ways to do it gently as opposed to with a sledgehammer so that I can build those relationships because everything in life is about those continued relationships. So, if I do something incorrectly in the beginning, it can cause damage moving forward, and I want to use the correct persuasion tactics, and I’ve gotten a lot of wonderful tools to be able to do that. Thank you.

AMY GALLO: That’s great. Well, Raven, Vanessa, thank you both so much. This has been a really useful conversation for me. I’ve learned a lot, and Raven, I appreciate you sharing your experience around all-things persuasion.

RAVEN HOFFMAN: Yes. Thank you for having me, and thank you, Vanessa, for your insights. They’ve been valuable.

VANESSA BOHNS: Thank you. It’s been really, really, really interesting listening to you. Thank you, as well. Thanks for sharing.

HANNAH BATES: That was Cornell professor Vanessa Bohns and Raven Hoffman, a senior estimator for a tile and stone contractor – in conversation with Amy Gallo on Women at Work. We’ll be back next Wednesday with another hand-picked conversation about leadership from the Harvard Business Review. If you found this episode helpful, share it with your friends and colleagues, and follow our show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. While you’re there, be sure to leave us a review. We’re a production of the Harvard Business Review. If you want more podcasts, articles, case studies, books, and videos like this, find it all at HBR dot org. This episode was produced by Amanda Kersey, Anne Saini, and me, Hannah Bates. Ian Fox is our editor. Music by Coma Media. Special thanks to Rob Eckhardt, Tina Tobey Mack, Erica Truxler, Maureen Hoch, Adi Ignatius, Karen Player, Ramsey Khabbaz, Nicole Smith, Anne Bartholomew, and you – our listener. See you next week.