How Do I Bounce Back After My First Layoff?

NYDIA BRYAN MARTINEZ: Hi, my name is Nydia and I’m based in Houston, Texas, and I recently just got laid off.

ELAINY MATA: So, a few months ago, we asked our Instagram followers to send us their layoff stories, and this one caught my attention.

NYDIA BRYAN MARTINEZ: It was like my world around me, the world that I knew was shattered. It was really dark in the beginning, in the first couple weeks, a month or so, but it’s getting brighter.

ELAINY MATA: We’re told that layoffs aren’t personal, that they’re a business decision, but that doesn’t make it any easier to recover and move on. We heard from a bunch of people about what they’ve been struggling with.

SPEAKER 3: It’s now been seven months since I found out that I was going to be laid off. And I have to say I was very surprised by how painful and hard on my self-esteem it was.

SPEAKER 4: My first thought was like, “Oh, my goodness. How am I going to provide for my kids? And what’s the path forward?”

SPEAKER 5: I think I’m still missing a lot of closure. Am I ever going to know why this happened?

ELAINY MATA: Welcome to New Here, honest conversations and practical advice to help you play the game called work. I’m Elainy Mata. You can get laid off at any point in your career, and when it happens, it can feel like the rug has been pulled out from under you. But the good news is you’re not alone. Today, we’ll go through the stages of a layoff and learn how you can quickly bounce back with help from two guests. You heard Nydia Bryan Martinez at the very start of the show, and she is here to share more of her layoff story. She’s an engineer in the first decade of her career. She had been working as a project manager at a startup in Houston. And Meloney Sallie-Dosunmu is also here. She is an HR consultant. Full disclosure, she does consult with HBR sometimes. That’s how I met her. And she’s become someone I really trust for advice. She’s laid people off, but she’s also been laid off twice. We’ll hear how they reframe their view of work after being laid off and how they’ve recovered. Okay, let’s get into it. So, this is definitely a journey and we’ll get to the recovery part later on. But first, could both of you take me back to the moment you got laid off for the first time? Meloney, you can go first. What happened?

MELONEY SALLIE-DOSUNMU: My first time being laid off, it was really interesting because I came to work that day, and when I arrived at work, I found out that there was an emergency meeting and it was an all hands on deck, but they had people going to two separate spaces, and it happened as soon as everyone arrived at work at 8:00 AM. Those of us who were being laid off were in one room and those that were not being laid off were in another room, and we were all hearing of a reorganization that was happening. It was passed down from corporate. And those of us who were being laid off, there were about 40 of us that were being laid off, and those of us who were being laid off, we were leaving that day.

ELAINY MATA: Wow. Nydia, please walk us through how that day went for you.

NYDIA BRYAN MARTINEZ: Sure. Yeah. So, it was a Friday and I woke up at 8:00 and I made my breakfast, had my coffee, and then I got a notification on my phone, because I had Slack and Google Calendar on my phone, that I had a meeting in nine minutes, and I was like, “This is weird. This meeting wasn’t on my calendar before.” I logged onto the meeting and HR was there, our HR president was there, and then our CEO came in a little bit later, so we were just having small talk. And then, he told me I got laid off and I was just so taken aback. I had no idea how to feel or what to do, and I just remember looking in the camera, because it was Zoom, and I just remember being like, “How do I look right now?” And I looked at my face and I looked pissed off. I just looked so upset, because almost like I didn’t know how to process, so I was like, “I wonder what’s even coming across.” So, it’s almost like I had to look in the mirror to even know how I was even feeling. They asked me if I had any questions. I really didn’t, because I didn’t know really what to ask or what to do. And 15 minutes later, I was locked out.

ELAINY MATA: Wow.

MELONEY SALLIE-DOSUNMU: Wow.

NYDIA BRYAN MARTINEZ: Yeah, I was locked out my computer. I was locked out of everything. My whole profile just got canceled and I just felt like the world that I knew was crumbling around, just was shattered. And it’s weird because I’m not a person that gets a lot of self value from my career. It was just really surprising that it kind of shook me like that.

ELAINY MATA: You didn’t feel that validation coming from your career. Why did you think it hit you as hard as it did?

NYDIA BRYAN MARTINEZ: Yeah, so thankfully, I’ve had a lot of time to think about that and process that. I guess, I think that, my parents are immigrants, they came from Jamaica and they built a really… My grandma was working in hotels, and the maid, and really just sacrificed a lot to give her family a better life. And my mom is like that with me too. She doesn’t let me forget her sacrifices and how much she did for me. So I guess, my stability and my security, how I feel about, I guess, my intelligence and what I bring to the table and things like that, and a lot of imposter syndrome that I felt through my career, it almost felt like being laid off was a validation to all those negative thoughts. And it had almost de-validated all the sacrifices that my family went through to get me to where I am right now. So yeah, I think it was just a lot of what I knew as myself and what I knew was my world was just shaking a bit.

ELAINY MATA: Yeah. Did you feel that way too, Meloney?

MELONEY SALLIE-DOSUNMU: Actually, unlike Nydia, I did get a lot of validation from my career. I got a lot of positive reinforcement from my network, from my family, that I had a job that seemed to be to other people, an important job. So I actually felt crushed. Like I, as a person, had lost some value. It was the highest salary I’d ever made before. I was relocated from Maryland to Pennsylvania for the job. So, to have all of that snatched out from under me, I had just given birth to… I just came off of maternity leave and was coming back into the workforce. So my life was coming back to what I consider to be normal. Now, what is common, what was a common experience for me was that imposter syndrome, because then I felt like, “Okay, actually I don’t have the value that I thought I had, that I was drawing from my job.” The second time I was laid off, it was a little bit more sensitive. I had six months before my job was actually going away. And also, I realized that my personal value did not come from my job. So, I didn’t have the same feelings there, and I had time to get things lined up and get myself together. Whereas the first time around, it was like the rug was snatched out from under me.

ELAINY MATA: So, I want to talk about money and the financial aspect of being laid off. Nydia, how was the financial implication for you after being laid off?

NYDIA BRYAN MARTINEZ: So, I would say that’s 70% of what really shook my core. I was like, “Oh, my God. My life, what’s it going to be now without…” And that’s what I mean, I was used to living a certain lifestyle because I was having a certain salary. And just like you were saying, Meloney, this was the highest I’d ever gotten paid. So, I was very comfortable and secure. And I think, like I said, when that financial security went away, it really left me feeling kind of confused and kind of alone also, if that makes a little bit of sense. I’m a saver by nature, so luckily I didn’t feel the pressure of having to find another financial job so quickly. And I’m also kind of a hustler. I always have two jobs, so I pet sit on the side as well. So, it’s nice to know that I still had a little bit of money coming in somewhere else. I mean, it really made me look around at things and kind of made me really, I guess, dissect how much money do I even really need to be comfortable and happy and secure. And I kind of realized that I was selling my soul a little bit for this salary and dealing and putting up with things and being unhappy just because I was making the most money I’ve ever made. And so, it made me really look at that and be like, “I don’t want to do that again.”

ELAINY MATA: Meloney, were you going to say something?

MELONEY SALLIE-DOSUNMU: Yeah, I was going to ask if, Nydia, when you were laid off, if you ended up applying for unemployment and what that experience was like.

NYDIA BRYAN MARTINEZ: So, first, I didn’t have any experience with unemployment. I had no interaction, no relationship with it, didn’t really know much about it. But then, I know that during COVID, a lot of people got laid off, lost their jobs, and people were applying for unemployment. So now, I’m getting this rhetoric around people just kind of not wanting to work and living off of unemployment. And so, getting laid off completely changed my relationship with unemployment and how I used to view other people that are in similar situations and getting unemployment. I even remember going to my partner and being like, “I don’t want to apply for unemployment.” He was like, “You literally pay taxes for this.” He was like, “It’s stupid for you not to apply for unemployment.” And I had to wrap my head around it. And I think it was, one, just how I felt about it. And then two, almost kind of admitting defeat in a way. So, it was kind of hard to be like, “Yep, this is really happening. I do not have a salary and I need to get money from the government, and it’s okay.”

MELONEY SALLIE-DOSUNMU: Absolutely. And I think a lot of times we have that paradigm that, “I don’t want a handout.” I mean, it’s just kind of baked into us as professionals oftentimes, but it’s not a handout. It is something that you have paid into for this very reason. And anyone who thinks that someone who’s trying to live off of unemployment, that that’s a good thing. It’s a fraction of your salary.

NYDIA BRYAN MARTINEZ: Yeah, you definitely can’t.

MELONEY SALLIE-DOSUNMU: No, it’s not enough.

ELAINY MATA: So in terms of money… I mean, Nydia, you were talking about you were saving. What are money things that we should have prepared for if and when a layoff happens?

MELONEY SALLIE-DOSUNMU: So, rule of thumb for me is to have three months’ worth of expenses saved. And when I say expenses, I mean your absolute necessities. Nydia said earlier, “What do I need in order to be happy?” Look at your expenses and say, “What do I need? What are the absolute necessities that I need? I like to get my nails done, but I can do them at home and not get them done every month, but maybe get them done every three months.” So, I believe that we should understand what are the necessities that I need, as Nydia said, to be happy. To survive, but also survive happy. We don’t want to give up everything that is important to us.

ELAINY MATA: Yeah. So that’s your rent, your mortgage, groceries.

MELONEY SALLIE-DOSUNMU: Car payment.

ELAINY MATA: Car payment, phone bill. There’s a lot of necessities.

MELONEY SALLIE-DOSUNMU: Yes, there are.

ELAINY MATA: There’s so many. Did that work? Is that how you approached it, Nydia?

NYDIA BRYAN MARTINEZ: I probably, as most millennials, spend too much money eating out, and things like that. So just figuring out-

ELAINY MATA: It’s hard not to.

NYDIA BRYAN MARTINEZ: Yeah. Just figuring out to cut back then. It’s funny, I mean, I know unpopular opinion, I like sparkling water. So, it was also like, “Okay, do I need to spend $12 every time at the grocery store to get six packs of sparkling water or three packs?” Things like that. I was trying to find ways to be modest with my spending. And just in general, I try to be pretty modest, except for when it comes to eating out, obviously. And then, just put everything else away to savings.

ELAINY MATA: So, you heard how Meloney and Nydia handled the emotional and financial shock of being laid off. After the break, we’ll talk about recovering and moving on. Plus, Meloney and Nydia will take your layoff questions. Be right back. So, I have some listener questions that I’d love to share with the both of you.

MELONEY SALLIE-DOSUNMU: Okay.

ELAINY MATA: One is from Jasmine and she asks, “What should you do if you don’t receive a severance package and have no other sources of income?” That is hard.

NYDIA BRYAN MARTINEZ: Unemployment.

MELONEY SALLIE-DOSUNMU: Absolutely. And I would even, there is no shame in going to apply for public assistance. There is no shame in that. I mean, again, that is a tax supported resource that’s out there, just like unemployment. So if you’re able to get unemployment, that is a huge help. And I would look at things like, are there food stamps available? There’s the LIHEAP Program that helps people pay to keep their utilities on, keep their source of heating on. I don’t think there’s enough support there to live on, but definitely to be a bridge until you get into a financial situation where you can actually sustain your family again.

ELAINY MATA: Do you think it’s worth getting an employment lawyer to look over the severance package?

NYDIA BRYAN MARTINEZ: I would say yes, just because I’ve heard some things. I guess, I’ve heard that some of the people that got laid off when I got laid off, they actually did negotiate their severance package. I think that’s something that is not well known, is that you can negotiate your severance package, because I think most people think, “What leverage do I have here? I don’t have any leverage.” But I think that there’s more that you can leverage that people don’t know.

MELONEY SALLIE-DOSUNMU: Yeah, I would agree. I mean, I know for a fact that when an employer is approached by an attorney, that there’s a different level of, I won’t say respect, but a different level of attention. And therefore, there’s a lot more opportunity to negotiate that severance package.

And also, there are times when a severance package may be set up with some loopholes in it, with some challenges in it. So, I agree, that having an employment attorney take a look at it is well worth it.

ELAINY MATA: I’m curious about this leverage though, this leverage about severance and what kind of power you as an employee have. I didn’t think you had any.

MELONEY SALLIE-DOSUNMU: You really don’t have much, but if you come with an attorney, you do get a little bit more attention and a little bit more opportunity to make some changes to it.

ELAINY MATA: Okay. One more. Camilla writes, “The situation has shattered my self-confidence in the past, and it feels like I will never recover from it. I feel like a failure and imposter syndrome takes over. I am impatient and pessimistic. It’s really hard for me mentally and physically. Any advice on how to move from this feeling?”

NYDIA BRYAN MARTINEZ: Yeah, I mean, that’s really hard, and I would have to say that I empathize with her. I feel like I felt the exact same way when I got laid off, very similar feelings. My advice would be to be patient with yourself and to almost let yourself feel those feelings. Just because they’re not positive butterfly feelings doesn’t mean that there’s not anything useful in them. You might find your path that gives you more self-worth, that gives you more confidence in those feelings. There’s an opportunity to sit back and listen to them and learn from them and almost use them to see what they can teach you for the future. When I got laid off and I was feeling the same way, really pessimistic, I kind of looked back and I was like, “I haven’t been happy in any of my careers, in any of my job choices.” And so, I kind of use that time to explore what a career of happiness would look like for me. And I kind of said the Albert Einstein quote, “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.” So I was like, “Okay, I need to make a change. I need to make a change, of what I’m doing in the past hasn’t been working for me, then I need to use this now and do something different.” So, the layoff was a good catalyst for me to really think about my career choices and use it going forward.

ELAINY MATA: Did you have to talk about the layoff in your job interview at all, Nydia?

NYDIA BRYAN MARTINEZ: Yes, they did ask me why I got laid off, and I think I luckily have it easy. It’s just that for me it was a reduction in workforce, but I know that it’s a little bit harder for other people that maybe got laid off due to performance or due to other reasons, to talk about that.

ELAINY MATA: Do you have any advice of how to talk about the layoff in the next job interview, Meloney?

MELONEY SALLIE-DOSUNMU: Yeah, I think practicing with another person. This one interview really stands out with me, where I interviewed a young lady who was laid off from her last job, and in the middle of the interview she started crying. When I asked her about her last job, she just started crying and shaking. And so, she had this emotional reaction. My question about that last job triggered something in her because she hadn’t moved on. So, I think that practicing it with a person is very helpful, especially because you want your explanation of what happened to be very matter of fact. Just really explaining those pieces. Typically, an organization should not lay you off for performance. However, if that does happen, it’s recognizing… If you feel like you contributed to being the person selected for layoff, then it’s, “Here’s what happened. I didn’t understand this or I didn’t do this. But since then, I have learned A, B, C, and D,” so that you don’t end that question with, “Yeah, I was laid off because I didn’t perform.” It is, “My ad campaign didn’t deliver the results that we were looking for because this, this and this was out of alignment. Since then, I’ve learned how to do a deeper dive into the research, to better align my activities with the marketplace.” You want to make sure that if in fact you’re talking about a shortcoming that you brought to the table that contributed to being selected, you want to talk about, okay, what’s different now. So that what is left in that interviewer’s mind is, “Hey, this person had an obstacle, but they are resilient and they emerged stronger, better, smarter for it.”

ELAINY MATA: So Nydia, being laid off, does that change your ability to trust a new employer?

NYDIA BRYAN MARTINEZ: I think for me it doesn’t, just because I’ve kind of known what it was from the beginning. Companies are always going to do what’s best for them. Meloney, they’ve literally had you relocate and then laid you off. I don’t want to say they don’t care, but I don’t think that they value your quality of life as much as you do. Which, I mean, that’s just kind of what it is. So, I think I’m at the same place that I was in the beginning. And if anything, it’s made me more passionate about starting my own business.

ELAINY MATA: That’s what Meloney did. She created her own business. Meloney, I admire you so much because you really took a situation that could have really knocked you down and you could have stayed down easily, and you’re like, “You know what? I’m going to turn this to my own benefit,” and you really did that. I think that’s the coolest story I’ve ever heard.

MELONEY SALLIE-DOSUNMU: It is just so exciting. I’m still excited. But I did, I started Precision Talent International in my business out of being laid off, and started doing what I love doing, and absolutely turning my competency as well as my passion into a lucrative business. And so, I can’t be laid off. I cannot. Now, I am working harder than I’ve ever worked in my entire life, and loving it.

NYDIA BRYAN MARTINEZ: That’s amazing. I would love to talk to you after this.

MELONEY SALLIE-DOSUNMU: Happy to.

ELAINY MATA: Thank you both so much for being open with your stories and being vulnerable with me here, and I just appreciate the both of you.

MELONEY SALLIE-DOSUNMU: Anytime.

NYDIA BRYAN MARTINEZ: Yeah, thank you.

ELAINY MATA: I really love that this episode ends with optimism, despite all the heavy stuff we talked about. Speaking of optimism, I do have an update from Nydia. She recently started a new job at a green energy nonprofit, and she says she’s really excited by the work, and she is almost ready to launch her pet sitting business. It’s called the Cozy Pup Club. Look out for her website, coming soon. Here are the main things that I’m taking away from this conversation. Number one, after you get laid off, it is okay to take some time to feel your feelings. Give yourself, say a week, and then start working on your path forward. Number two, part of the time that you’re taking to feel your feelings is considering if you want to keep doing what you’re doing. Are you happy or do you need a change? A layoff can force you to pause and consider some bigger questions about your career, so don’t be afraid to take that opportunity and make some big changes. Number three, and finally, do not sign your severance package before you review it closely. And if you think what you’re being offered isn’t fair, definitely try to negotiate. Next week, we’ll be talking about something that I have felt multiple times, and that is losing motivation at work. You know, when the thrill of your first job wears off. We’ll talk about different types of motivation, why so many of us feel this way at work, and how to understand what your lack of motivation is telling you. Thank you to all of our listeners who shared their layoff questions and stories with us. We want to hear from you, so please, please, please keep sending us your stories and questions about work. Our email is newhere@hbr.org. If you send us a message, we’ll send you a surprise. And it’s not a bribe, I swear. We just really want to hear from you. Again, our email is newhere@hbr.org. And if you liked what you heard, follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And while you’re there, leave us a review and tell us what you think of the show. Then, send the episode to your group chat, Slack, or wherever you talk work. Did you know that Harvard Business Review has more podcasts to help you manage your business and your career? You can find them at hbr.org/podcasts, or search HBR wherever you listen. This episode was produced by Hannah Bates, Anne Saini, Magdelene Johnson, and me, Elainy Mata. Special thanks to Emma Hudd and Gary Ingles. Our editor is Mary Dooe and our engineer is Tina Tobey Mack. Supervising editors are Maureen Hoch and Paige Cohen. Ian Fox manages podcasts at HBR. And our theme song was composed by Graz de Oliviera. See you back here next week. Bye.