How Do I Set the Right Pace To Meet Our Strategic Goals?

MURIEL WILKINS: I’m Muriel Wilkins, and this is Coaching Real Leaders, part of the HBR Podcast Network. I’m a longtime executive coach who works with highly successful leaders who’ve hit a bump in the road. My job is to help them get over that bump by clarifying their goals and figuring out a way to reach them so that hopefully they can lead with a little more ease. I typically work with clients over the course of several months, but on this show, we have a one-time coaching meeting focusing on a specific leadership challenge they’re facing. Today’s guest is someone will call Mo to protect her confidentiality. She’s worked in the higher education sector for decades, and she continues to be driven by the work and the relationships she gets to build.

MO: To be able to see students, to get to know them, to get to see how they grow and change during these four years, and then to see them have success as they launch into the world, and then to see that they reach back so quickly to give back and to see the way that our community supports our students as they are navigating, exploring their values and their purpose and what they’re feeling called to do. All of that is just really rewarding.

MURIEL WILKINS: For a long time, Mo was at the director level and managed a small team, but recently there was a shakeup.

MO: We had a new leader of our organization who brought in a new structure, and my role was a part of this structure of this new organization that had never been aligned in this way. So in the new role, there was an expansion of my duties. The team grew. It’s the first time in my career that I have been a manager of managers as opposed to managing a small team.

MURIEL WILKINS: Mo has taken on more responsibility. She’s energized by the challenge and has ambitious goals, but she reached out to make sure she was approaching these goals in the right way, and to think about ways she can succeed as a first time manager of managers. I wanted to get a baseline of where she was at. So I began by asking her how she felt about this new increase in responsibilities.

MO: It’s been exciting. It’s been great to still be in an institution where I still feel called to do this work, while also having the opportunity to grow and to learn. Love to learn. It’s nice to have that expansion of learning. And there were all the areas that now report to me I had a little bit of insight into. I had been an advisor at one point, so that was not something that I had no idea about. Success coaching, completely new. So to have that report to a person who reports to me has been a new area to learn about. So I’m now learning about things that were just beyond what my original scope of work was.

MURIEL WILKINS: Okay, so what brought you here? Why are we meeting? What’s going on?

MO: We are meeting because there are some goals we have as a team that cannot be accomplished in a single year or a single semester. They’re going to take years of effort and work. They’re also going to take multiple collaborators. Our team cannot do it alone. So we’re relying on so many partnerships and collaborations. And so that is a lot to keep track of and also, to know what is the right pace? What is the right amount to get done in one year toward a goal that I can set a timeframe on it and say, we want to have this done in three years, but some of it is outside of our control because of all these multiple collaborators. And so it’s hard to know what is the right pace to do this work, what is the right timeline to even project and guess might be the right time to allow us to start to achieve some of these goals. And what is the right allotment of my time? So, this is the first time that I have been in this more strategic role as opposed to just doing and managing. And so I am just still trying to figure out what is the right allotment of my time? What is the right timeframe to put on these goals? And how do we know if we’re measuring progress in the right way? These are the questions that I struggle with almost daily.

MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. All right. And what does that struggle look like?

MO: It looks like just a constant wonder of, am I getting this right? Am I spending my days in the right way? Should I be doing more? Should I be doing things differently? The inability to feel confident that the way that I am arranging my days and weeks and months is the correct and accurate way to get us where we are trying to go as an institution and as a team.

MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. So lots of unknowns for you around how to map out the future, not only for your team and the strategy and as you said, the pacing and the timing to be able to reach your goals, but also, for you personally, in terms of being the leader of this team, how you should be allocating your time. And as you put it, am I spending my time, the “right way”. Okay. So how would you know it’s the right way?

MO: Great question. That is what’s so hard to know. Will I only know it in reverse? Will I only know it at the end of a year when I look back and say, “Oh, we accomplished X or Y?” Am I supposed to know it at the end of every month? Because we were able to set a goal and we achieved it that month. That’s what I’m struggling with.

MURIEL WILKINS: Okay.

MO: Because the things that we’re trying to do cannot be accomplished in a single year. It’s so far out. It will take so long to know that we have moved the needle towards success. That it’s hard to know working backwards, okay, was this a good week? Did we get things done the right way? There are some goals, right? I could say have one conversation a week with a potential collaborator or partner.

MURIEL WILKINS: To what end?

MO: But what if it took three conversations to actually-

MURIEL WILKINS: What if it took three?

MO: Right? What if it took five?

MURIEL WILKINS: Got you.

MO: I don’t know.

MURIEL WILKINS: All right. I hear you. You’re looking for the formula.

MO: I am.

MURIEL WILKINS: I don’t know if there is a formula, Mo. Okay?

MO: Okay.

MURIEL WILKINS: I think you’ve got to create your own formula, and it’s a hypothesis, right?

MO: Right.

MURIEL WILKINS: So, let me ask you this, right? Sounds like you’ve worked directly with students–

MO: Yes.

MURIEL WILKINS: –as well. And you articulated that what you love about the work that you’ve done and the community that you’re in, is that it’s in support of these students being able to launch. Now, I presume when these students come in, they’re four years out from that launch?

MO: Yes.

MURIEL WILKINS: Okay.

MO: Call it one to four.

MURIEL WILKINS: So, for those that are four years out, how did you in the past, determine what was the right way to spend your time? So that the ultimate goal would be that they launched successfully in four years.

MO: So, if it was an individual conversation with an individual student, giving them some of the tools and resources and giving them some ideas of experiences that they should be having along the way, was the way to help them think about reverse engineering a successful launch following their degree.

MURIEL WILKINS: So, you gave them the information so that they could reverse engineer and say, “Oh, so what do I need to do along these four years to be able to get to this ultimate point?”

MO: Yes.

MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. So what would it look like to reverse engineer the goals that you’ve set for your team?

MO: Yeah. I think painting a picture of what success… What we hope the outcomes are and the impacts are, and what our hopes are for just pick a time. Whether that’s three years or four years or two years, and then follow my own advice and reverse engineer it. And so if we say, okay, if we want to have this specific number of courses that embed career readiness, just to pick a number and buy a specific date and then figure out, okay, if that’s the number of courses, then how many potential collaborators would we need to speak with? Knowing that not everyone’s going to say yes, not everybody’s going to buy in. Then figuring out, okay, do we think that half the people will, or do we think that a third of the people will? And just like you’re saying, a hypothesis, make that guess and start working toward that.

MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah. I do think there’s a bit of a reverse engineering. So I think there’s two parts to it. There’s the, how do you get your team tracked and pacing? And then there’s the, how do you spend your time within that? So let’s tackle the team piece. And it sounds like you already have goals that are established. The question is, when are those goals supposed to be met by?

MO: Right. Yes.

MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. So while you can create a hypothesis, it needs to be informed, and then you want to test it. And so my question is, where did these goals come from? What’s the context of these goals? Are they in support of bigger goals for your institution? What is the container that they’re in that might give you a better sense of what the time range is?

MO: And we’re in a bit of a transition period. So the leader who created this new division that I’m a part of, departed, and we’ve had an interim leader, an acting leader, and now, the new leader is going to arrive and begin work. So, there will be a little bit of a discernment period and a goal setting period and a strategic planning process that our work needs to support.

MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. All right.

MO: So that’s why it’s hard to say, okay, should we just say we want to accomplish some of these goals within two years, but what if our new leaders’ strategic priorities are a little bit different and we need to step back and figure out a way to sort out those priorities? So we’re in a little bit of a holding pattern.

MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah. So what if that happens?

MO: Then we adjust. We adjust.

MURIEL WILKINS: Exactly.

MO: Yes.

MURIEL WILKINS: I think you’re leading in a state of ambiguity. That’s what’s exacerbating this, right?

MO: Yes.

MURIEL WILKINS: You’re trying to make things known in a situation that is unknown. So in fact, your feeling of I’m not sure what the future is going to look like is on point because it is unsure what the future is going to look like because the future leadership isn’t here yet. The strategic planning process hasn’t happened. And so you’re trying to make these decisions around goals for your team in a vacuum.

MO: Right.

MURIEL WILKINS: Right.

MO: Right. Exactly. And yet, I want to do a little bit of strategic planning ourselves in a very draft form so that when the new leader arrives, we have some things for that leader to react and respond to. The leader may say, “Nope, none of this.” Or the leader may say, “This seems good.” And so that we are not just waiting, but that we are ready to respond and to show, okay, this is the value based on the strategic ideas that you will bring. Here’s the value that our team can bring in support of this new leader’s vision.

MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. All right. So you’ve articulated two options and you’ve got to choose one.

MO: Right. Right.

MURIEL WILKINS: You’re either in a holding pattern, which is, you know what? We’re not doing any planning. We’re not doing any goal setting, we’re not doing any of that. We’re just going to wait until new leader provides clarity. Or you decide that you’re going to head towards some destination, right? Not quite sure which one yet, but you’re going to figure it out, which means you’re going to do your own interim planning process and start working towards those goals. What you can’t do is be in a holding pattern and head towards your destination at the same time. It’s physically impossible. So I think what I’m hearing around what you’re struggling with is not necessarily the timing of marching towards the goals, but you need to take it to step one, do I even want to claim these goals and own these goals and make a plan against them and do the work? Or do I want to wait?

MO: Right.

MURIEL WILKINS: And so which one are you leaning towards?

MO: I’m leaning towards still planning because the leader who is coming, is known to me. This is a leader who actually hired me to move into the role that I was in prior to this new expanded role. And so I know a little bit about what matters to this new leader, and I think that the work that we are doing will be in alignment with his goals.

MURIEL WILKINS: Okay.

MO: So, I would love to have some things ready for response, even if we have to set us aside and say, “that’s not it.” No… no. Wrong goals.

MURIEL WILKINS: Wrong goals.

MO: Remake them, right? Recreate them. That would be okay.

MURIEL WILKINS: You’re okay with that?

MO: Completely okay with that.

MURIEL WILKINS: Great. So that’s where your confidence is going to come from.

MO: Okay.

MURIEL WILKINS: Your confidence is going to come from or is coming from, no matter what happens, I’m okay with it. If these are the goals that this new leader agrees to, yay. If these are not it, that’s okay. We keep it moving.

MO: Yes.

MURIEL WILKINS: What it sounds like you’re not okay with is just being in this holding pattern and not doing anything.

MO: Right. That’s hard, right?

MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah.

MO: Most of us want to-

MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah. I see your face all scrunched up.

MO: Right. Most of us want to feel like we are moving toward goals. So yeah.

MURIEL WILKINS: Most of us. Although this morning I was sitting there, I’m like, I don’t want to move. I just want to be still. Can I just be still for a while? For a while. But I hear you. Mo started off this conversation by sharing how excited she still is by her job, how much it energizes her, and that she had some concerns about knowing some of the things she wants to accomplish, but not sure if she’s pacing out goals correctly. As a first time manager of managers, she seemed a bit overwhelmed by the set of challenges she was facing, which she first articulated as her goals being dependent on other stakeholders. As we spoke though, we teased out a few related issues that we’ll dive deeper into. First, we learned in terms of the specifics that it isn’t just that she’s leading a newer, bigger team, but also, that there have been shakeups in the leadership ranks above her, meaning setting a strategic vision is even trickier. That feeds into the problem she articulated around not knowing if she was pacing work and goal setting correctly. She’s leading through some ambiguity here. And when that happens, I like to coach people through possible approaches or options to see how the different scenarios might play out, which got us to the question around whether she should take initiative to set a strategic plan, knowing it might change or wait until a new leader is in place and she’s able to make that decision based on something she’s confident in, that if she does move forward and the direction later changes, she’ll be able to pivot. The first step is deciding on the destination, and then we can work through her planning process on how to get there and how to time it correctly. She can reverse engineer it. Let’s dive back in as we start to think about that process and how much of her work depends on other stakeholders as I ask her, how big of an impact could her collaborators have on her timing?

MO: That’s challenging. And I’m thinking a lot. They completely control the impact on timing because some of the collaborators that we most need to buy in have a lot of independence and control over their work. And so, it is completely, they hold all the impact of this timing because there could be people who say, “Absolutely not. I don’t want to be a part of that.” And so the search that continues for the people who might say yes, and then once the people say yes, it might be, okay, but that’s not going to work for this upcoming semester, but I can see doing that a year from now. And so, the timing is completely out of our control.

MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. So it’s out of your control. I didn’t ask you though whether the timing was in your control or out of your control. I asked you, how can you gauge how much of an impact these collaborators can have on the timing? Meaning, how are you going to know how to time things given the collaborators?

MO: I think that’s where I’m stuck.

MURIEL WILKINS: So, let’s imagine you’re the collaborator and somebody else is working on something and it’s using resources or needs the resources that are under your control. How would you want them to relate towards you as they’re planning something out, which clearly you have skin in the game?

MO: I think I would like them to relate to me by recognizing that maybe that it aligns with my goals too. So being in alignment on what we both hope to achieve, but then also, just having enough notice to be able to start working on it and to do it well.

MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah. You used the word getting buy-in from your collaborators, which is part of what you’re saying in terms of aligning and goals, and then how is it executed? So how much gaining buy-in is going to be part of your process in planning towards your team’s goals? Or how much have you already done? I’m not sure.

MO: Yeah. So some relationships have already been built that I think will lead to buy-in. Just last week, a member of the team and I started talking about where do we think our strongest allies are and who might be in a quick yes so that we could start working together. So some of that is already done. I think it’s just a matter of sharing this vision with some key allies and potential partners to see if we can get a yes from them. And then once we get a yes, what is the timing that works for them? I think that’s where I have been stuck is, all of this takes typically one-on-one conversation, and it may not take just one conversation. There may be follow-up conversations. And so that is what has been a challenge, is to not know if I have four conversations in a week, is that enough? If I have four conversations in a month, will that be enough? So I guess the best way to figure it out is just to start. So maybe you set a goal, which would be maybe set a goal to have two conversations a week and see what is the yield? Does that yield one person who says, “Yes, let’s keep talking.” Or does that yield one, “Yes, let’s do this.” Or does it, for the people who I talk with that week, where they’re zero takers on potential collaboration and that could therefore inform the hypothesis of how many conversations it might take.

MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah. Look, I think you’re looking for this magic number and you don’t have a track record yet, which is really where the source of discomfort is. You don’t have something to say, this is what you right should do and it will guarantee that you get to these results.

MO: Yes.

MURIEL WILKINS: There’s never a guarantee. All you can guarantee is the effort that you’re putting in, and you want to make sure that that effort is aligned with the overarching goals that you’ve set for yourself or for your team. What’s interesting to me is that you’re focusing on the number of conversations, the quantity of the conversations, rather than the quality of the conversations. And I would say that alignment, gaining alignment is a function of both.

MO: Right.

MURIEL WILKINS: Quality and quantity, with probably a higher index on quality, because that’s where the meat is. That’s where you can align on objectives. You can find out what’s going on with them, what are they willing to do, et cetera. So when I say that, the focus on quantity versus quality, how does that land with you? What does that make you think of?

MO: I completely agree. And yet, when I look at my schedule in the week and trying to figure out where do I put these conversations, how many do I even try to squeeze in, given the way that my schedule currently exists? I think the reason I’m looking for the magic number is I’m trying to figure out, okay, am I trying to find space for one conversation per week, or am I trying to find space for a larger number than one per week? And so even though the quality matters once I’m there, just even finding-

MURIEL WILKINS: The space.

MO: Building in the space for the quantity that need to be there is the unknown. It’s just unknown. How many should I be trying to find space and time to make?

MURIEL WILKINS: And in the order of priorities, I’m assuming you have priorities. In the order of priorities, where do these conversations or this gaining alignment with the collaborators doing the strategy work, where is it from a priority standpoint?

MO: It’s a really high priority for me. Because what we are trying to do is create a campus-wide culture, meaning that students don’t necessarily have to come to a member of our team to gain the preparation and the readiness that they need to launch. But it’s just infused. It’s everywhere. And so in looking at trying to create this campus-wide culture, which is just so hard to get your hands around, right?

MURIEL WILKINS: Yes.

MO: It’s hard to know when is enough. Is it if every academic department has this as a part of their major declaration process? Is that too late? And so does it therefore need to be during a first or second year experience that every student has?

MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. So I can’t tell you that because I’m not in the institution, right?

MO: Yes. Right.

MURIEL WILKINS: And nobody else is going to be able to tell you that because you’re leading this. And that’s part of leadership. Part of leading it is being able to put a stake in the ground to say, “This is how we’re defining success, and this is the evidence we would be looking for that would help indicate that we’ve achieved the culture that we want to achieve.” But it starts with, well, what is that culture? And then what evidence? What would we need to see to believe that this culture is now in place? And I’m saying you need to put a stake in the ground as the leader, but because it’s an institutional or organizational-wide culture that you’re trying to implement, you can’t come up with what that looks like in isolation, which is where the process of getting alignment and getting folks to provide input and weigh in on what they think the culture should be on, what they would see as evidence as to what they define as success is going to be important for you.

MO: Yes.

MURIEL WILKINS: So, I’m hearing a couple of things. One is, this is one of your high priorities in terms of defining the culture and then defining the plan that’s going to get you there and aligning with the collaborators that are going to get you there. And the other thing I’m hearing is, but it’s unclear what we’re aiming for. So I think you need to start with getting clarity on what you’re aiming for. There’s no way you can answer, how much time should I be spending in my calendar, if there’s not some clarity around what the destination is. If we go back to this airplane, you’ve decided you’re not staying in a holding pattern, you’re going to move towards a destination. Well, you’ve got to figure out like, well, what’s the destination that I’m going to? And then you need to check, how much gas do I have? Do we have enough? Are they able to let us land there? And so that’s the equivalent, right? You have to articulate destination. Then you need to go check with the collaborators and say, “Is this doable? Are you aligned with this? Does this fit with your vision?” So there’s a strategic level muscle that needs to start from an umbrella standpoint to see the whole process and own it and drive it before you can get down to the nitty-gritty of, how are we timing this thing? Right?

MO: Right.

MURIEL WILKINS: Okay.

MO: Yes.

MURIEL WILKINS: And then in terms of your question of, well, then how do I spend my time? Look, I think if you truly feel like this is one of your priorities, one of your top two or top three priorities, then I think you need to use a bit of a different approach than what you have used. The approach you told me you’ve been using is you look at your calendar and you look at where can you squeeze in this strategic planning and these strategic conversations. I think if the strategic planning and the strategic conversations are your priority, it should be the reverse. That should be in your calendar, and then you’re looking to squeeze in the other stuff.

MO: Yes.

MURIEL WILKINS: So, if you did that, what would that look like? How much space would you be giving it? And what would it look like in your calendar?

MO: I think I would have something that’s helping move toward this priority four out of five days of the week.

MURIEL WILKINS: You’ve got your answer.

MO: Yeah.

MURIEL WILKINS: And what makes you land on that? Four to five days a week?

MO: Just because I think the recognition that it’s going to take. This will not be achieved without investing significant time, and it is going to take multiple conversations. And those take time. And it probably won’t take a single conversation with any one person. It might take multiple conversations because something that you said about, I’ve got to paint the picture of where we’re going and what I’m hoping to achieve, but then there’s just got to be a lot of listening and a lot of hearing from others, where, what are the challenges that they’re trying to solve for? What are their pain points? And then what are ways that this strategic vision and direction could actually help address some of the things that they are concerned about and that they’re trying to do?

But that’s just going to be a lot of listening, and it can’t be me going in and just talking. It’s got to be having some conversation points, some prompts, and some questions that guide the conversation so that I’m hearing information that people need to share with me. But that’s just going to take time. And so, I think that’s the answer. Is to block this time to try to be available, to try to initiate these conversations just so that I can hear what others are thinking and hoping, and see how we could then get in alignment to still achieve this strategic goal.

MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah. And I think using this word initiate is important. It’s not just making yourself available.

MO: Right. No, no.

MURIEL WILKINS: It’s initiating it. It’s driving it. It’s matching up your schedule and your time to your priorities, and only you can decide what those priorities are. Particularly because you’re in a state right now of not getting direction. Nobody’s telling you what your priorities should be. Nobody’s telling you where to spend your time. Ironically, it’s like the students you deal with when they get to college, nobody’s telling them anymore.

MO: Right. Right.

MURIEL WILKINS: Right? So think about it that way. Okay?

MO: Right. Right.

MURIEL WILKINS: It’s freshman year. And so if you think about it from that standpoint, literally, all jokes aside, it’s freshman year. What advice would you give the freshman in this sense of ambiguity that can also be a sense of freedom and what can you apply to yourself?

MO: Yeah. I think the question that you ask much earlier in the conversation just made me realize, I teach people how to do this every day, and yet…

MURIEL WILKINS: And yet.

MO: And yet.

MURIEL WILKINS: Right? If we would only listen to our inner teacher.

MO: And yet… Oh, it’s a challenge that I’ve been struggling with.

MURIEL WILKINS: But I asked you at some point, what’s the struggle? And so now, looking back on the conversation we had, what would you define the struggle as being?

MO: I think there are two struggles. I think one is, I have had this strategic vision for many years, and yet, we are in this waiting period. And so I think part of the struggle is press forward or wait? And both choices are possible. So I think that’s one struggle. I think the second struggle is, just time is finite. And unfortunately, I wish it weren’t so, but it is. And so there just are a lot of demands on my time, and some of them are things I have to say yes to. And then others are things that I choose to say yes to because they’re things that also matter to me, even though they’re maybe not my top strategic priorities. And so I think the struggle has been how to figure out how to fit it all in, in any given week because it all seems important.

MURIEL WILKINS: Because it all seems important. Right? These are choices, and choices are trade-offs.

MO: Right.

MURIEL WILKINS: Because how can I fit it all in when I don’t have all the time in the world? You don’t. As you said, time is finite, right? It’s bounded. Well, not really, but in our physical realm, it’s bounded.

MO: Right. Right. It is.

MURIEL WILKINS: Right?

MO: It is.

MURIEL WILKINS: So, what you’re struggling with is making a choice, but why is making a choice hard for you?

MO: I think because there is so much that we could be doing. There is so much that we already do, and I don’t want to stop doing those things, but yet, I have the appetite for us to do more. And a member of my team who I work with, I learned a phrase from her that I’m a time optimist. She’s a time realist. And so being a time realist versus a time optimist, I’m a time optimist. And so I think that there should be more time to do more and there should be more opportunity to do more as we try to serve our students in the best possible way. And a time realist would say, “You got to make a choice. We can’t do all these things because there isn’t enough time.” So the time optimist that I am doesn’t like that answer and doesn’t want to hear that answer, wants to continue to just push ahead and to try to keep adding more and more, which is unrealistic.

MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah. But you know, there is such a thing that is known as a realistic optimist.

MO: Okay.

MURIEL WILKINS: I think this is going to be what we’re going to aim for. Realistic optimism. And the optimism part, it is having a vision that you’re pushing forward towards. You see what’s possible. That’s the optimism part.

MO: Yes.

MURIEL WILKINS: The realistic part is what can be done within the context? The framing of where we are towards that vision? And I think you’re seeing them as mutually exclusive. If I can’t be doing everything right now as it relates to that vision, then I’m not marching towards that vision. That’s not true. There’s a difference between what can I do within the timeframe that I have or the time limitations that I have, which is for you on a weekly basis, 24 times seven, but hopefully you’re not using up all that time. What can I do? There’s a difference between that question and the question, what can be done during that time? And so what’s the difference to you when I say that?

MO: The difference is, finding other people who want to help do the work. It’s spreading it out. To me, that’s the difference.

MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah. Because this is where you have to ask yourself, particularly for you as a leader who’s now, what we call scaling up, you went from managing a team to now managing multiple teams. You went to becoming a manager of managers. What is more important to you? That you’re doing the work or that the work is getting done?

MO: Oh, it’s very much important to me that the work is getting done.

MURIEL WILKINS: Okay.

MO: Right.

MURIEL WILKINS: Okay.

MO: Yeah.

MURIEL WILKINS: So, this is where the realistic part is, what can I do within my time parameters? How do I prioritize? How do I make choices? Of which one of the parts that you’re responsible for is making sure that the other work that you aren’t responsible for personally is getting done. So I think I want you to hold this being a realist and an optimist because the reality part is in the present and the optimist part is in the future. And so it’s your capability, your capacity to hold both. Your calendar is what holds you to the reality, present.

MO: Right, exactly.

MURIEL WILKINS: The vision is what holds you to the future of the optimist part. They’re not mutually exclusive. In talking through how she might tactically move forward to her goals, we’ve worked through a few important points here with Mo. It was interesting that she zeroed in on the number of calls, on the specifics of how to divide her time as she works towards her goals, which is an important concrete thing to do. To set goals around what she can achieve, what she has control over, what she can measure the results of. But in some ways, she was focusing on the trees and we lost a bit of the forest. I love that we reached this point of being a realistic optimist and how to hold both of those things at once because that allows her to think realistically about her time, how she spends her weeks, and how much time she needs to reach the goals she has for the team, but also allows her to hold onto the excitement and hope she has around those goals and realize that there are things within her control, she just has to make some decisions. I wanted to dive back in because I was picking up on something for Mo, that she’s having a bit of a hard time prioritizing because she has this feeling that time is limited, but that her goals will also take years to accomplish. I asked her about how that tension made her feel.

MO: I feel okay about it. There is part of me who wishes that we were already there. Many of the… There are lots of things that I already wish we had accomplished, but I know that it takes time and I know that it’s okay to invest the time. That’s okay. That’s a good use of time, is to try to work toward accomplishing these strategic directions. But I am just a little impatient, and I wish in many cases, that we were already there. But I just have to keep reminding myself of the work that we have accomplished.

It’s been good to go back and reflect and look through prior strategic plans and realize, okay, these are things that we got done. These are new initiatives that we started, and we are doing them and they are working and they’re good. What’s hard is to look at all of the tactics that we had hoped to implement by this time and that we just haven’t even begun yet. And so that is a call to realism just of, was that too optimistic to try to think that all of those things could have been accomplished in a three or four year time period? I think it’s good to have aimed for it, but it just shows that there’s still so much to be done.

MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah. So, I’m sensing that you are looking back and saying, “We’ve been down this road before and we didn’t accomplish it, but man, not on my watch.”

MO: I know.

MURIEL WILKINS: If I’m flying this plane, we are getting to this destination.

MO: We are trying to get there. Yes.

MURIEL WILKINS: We are trying to get there.

MO: Yes.

MURIEL WILKINS: And there’s no magic ball as to whether you’re going to get there or not. Obviously, you wouldn’t be heading in that direction if you didn’t think you could, but that’s what you have to try to figure out is, what is within our capabilities.

MO: Yes.

MURIEL WILKINS: Okay.

MO: Exactly.

MURIEL WILKINS: And because it’s multi-year, and because it’s culture, look, the culture, this is the thing with culture change. People are like, “Oh, I want to change the culture and it needs to happen in a year.” I’m like, “Well, the current culture you’re in didn’t get created in one year. So why the expectation that it’s going to change to something else overnight?” Creating a new culture is changing organizational habits. And when we think about how much time it takes just for habits at an individual level to change, think about what it takes collectively. And so with that in mind, I’m just curious around what your expectations are. Do you have a sense of what you can expect to even happen within the next year and then the next two years and the next three years? Have you mapped it out in that way?

MO: We’re in a process of doing that right now. There was a larger strategic planning process that then needed to be put on hold just with the change in top leadership. With a new leader starting just in a few months, that strategic planning process will begin again, and then at that point, we’ll know which of the things that matter to us and that we have thought were important will be adopted and which of the things will not be adopted. So I think it’s hard to know where will we be in 12 months, 24 months until we know what the strategic priorities of the institution are and where ours help push forward those strategic priorities.

MURIEL WILKINS: So again, you’re back to, you got to figure out what you can figure out within that context that you’re in, and you’ve already decided you’re going to do that. Why the impatience? How does that help you in any way?

MO: Yeah, I guess it doesn’t.

MURIEL WILKINS: I’m not making judgment. I’m curiously and you’re like, “I guess.” You either…

MO: Yeah.

MURIEL WILKINS: Don’t guess.

MO: Yeah.

MURIEL WILKINS: Is it helping you? Is it not helping you? Why be impatience?

MO: I think the impatience is at the point that I am in my career, I view this as the final chapter. So within 10 years max, I will decide to retire. It could be eight years, and eight years is going to fly by. And so knowing that there is, just as the weeks have finite bounds on them, the years now I’m starting, it’s not this infinite stretch of my career, but I’m starting to see that there is a pretty finite length of time that will move pretty rapidly just because the years do. The years move pretty rapidly. And I would like this to be a legacy of my career.

MURIEL WILKINS: Okay.

MO: The strategic vision.

MURIEL WILKINS: Now we’re seeing.

MO: That’s why the impatience, that’s why the impatience.

MURIEL WILKINS: That’s the impatience. Okay. So there’s a level of urgency for you because you’re seeing your timeline with this organization as finite.

MO: Yes.

MURIEL WILKINS: And you want to make sure that the work gets done within the next couple of years that you’re going to be there?

MO: Yes.

MURIEL WILKINS: Because this is your, as you see it, final hurrah. Right? But is it?

MO: In this role? I think it is. Yes. I think is.

MURIEL WILKINS: So, there’s definitely a completion or an ending in terms of time that you’re there. There’s a difference between time being finite and then what happens with impact. Impact is not finite or it doesn’t have to be. So I think the formula that you’re actually solving for, I’m going to go back on what I said earlier. I actually think now that you’ve shared this, the formula you’re solving for is, what should I be spending my energy on in the next couple of years to ensure that it has impact beyond those years?

MO: Yes.

MURIEL WILKINS: So, when we frame it that way, how does that inform where you should be spending your time? Does it inform it any differently?

MO: I don’t feel like it does. I feel like it still calls me to focus on my top priorities of which this strategic vision of this culture is the top, because of the impact that it can have. Because if we get it right, then every student going forward is impacted. Every student. 100% of them.

MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah. So perhaps where you need to feel rest assured, have some confidence, is that if you put in the effort now, there will be a residual beyond the years, right? It’s no different than, again, I keep coming back to this because you’re in the field of educating young people, and you’ve dealt with alums, alumni. It’s no different than you put in those four years while they’re there. Is that really the end all? When do you start seeing the results?

MO: Right? The results, you can see the results during the four years. You can see the results within the first years. You can see the results in some cases, because I’ve worked with them for a long time, like a decade and two decades later, you still see the results.

MURIEL WILKINS: Exactly. And so the confidence has to come in, can you trust that what you’re doing now is going to have the long-term results, the long-term impact that’s aligned with the vision that you have for the culture? And you may not see it.

MO: Right.

MURIEL WILKINS: I hope you do.

MO: Right.

MURIEL WILKINS: But rather than thinking, I need to do everything that’s possible, the exhaustive list of what’s possible to see this culture come to life within the timeframe that I’ve put on this because it’s tied to my retirement age, right?

MO: Right.

MURIEL WILKINS: Not arbitrary.

MO: Right. It’s tied to my life.

MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. If we put a bit of a different lens on it, which is, what can I do? Where can I put my efforts and my team efforts in the time that we do have, so that it sets the foundation, maybe even the next step. It sets the scaffolding, maybe even more than that for the culture that we hope to have. And as you said, it sounds like that doesn’t really change what you came to around hey, I need to be prioritizing these strategic conversations. I need to be prioritizing the aligning and start off probably a little slower so that I build a strong foundation. And for you, we started off this conversation where you asked, is what I’m doing enough? And so when we frame it that way, in terms of the doing, being in service of the longer term impact of the culture, what does enough look like for you?

MO: Yeah. I think enough looks like defining success maybe in smaller chunks so that it’s easier to know, yes, this was enough. We were able to define what success would look like in year one, and either, we achieved it or we came close. I think in a way, by making the timeframe smaller, instead of realizing that the timeframe is eight to 10 years, figuring out what would success look like in 12 to 24 months? What could we call that? If we could consider it a win, if we were able to do X within 12 to 24 months? I think that that would be more helpful than trying to have this very large goal that has a very long timeframe because it’s hard to know within a shorter timeframe, was it enough? Did we get anything done if you’re constantly looking out so far ahead.

MURIEL WILKINS: Right. And just because you have the shorter timeframe of what success looks like in the next year, two year, three years, week, doesn’t mean that you’re letting go of the longer term vision and the longer term goal. It’s actually the contrary. Those shorter term milestones are what keeps you moving towards that goal. And maybe instead of asking yourself, am I doing enough? The question could be, am I doing what’s aligned with the longer vision? Because are we ever doing, who knows? Enough is such a relative term.

MO: I know.

MURIEL WILKINS: The question is, are you doing and is it aligned? That’s it. Is what we’re doing aligned with that longer term vision?

MO: Yes.

MURIEL WILKINS: Okay?

MO: Yes.

MURIEL WILKINS: I can’t remember the name of the book now, but it’s by one of my favorite writers, Ta-Nehisi Coates. In the book, he talks about the march towards justice and anti-racism and how we need to really think about what we’re doing in that area as this multi-generational effort rather than thinking what we’re going to do is going to make us see that vision come to life in our lifetime. It might. It would be great if it did. Of course nobody’s going to say, “No, no, no, no, no, we don’t want to end racism in my lifetime. Let it wait.” Right? Nobody wants to say that.

MO: Right.

MURIEL WILKINS: And so, there’s the optimism that it will end, that there’s a hope that it ends, and then there’s a realism that it might not end in my lifetime, but that doesn’t mean I’m going to stop the work. So I think in any change effort, that’s the case. What you’re doing with these kids in school, you’re planting the seed in them, you’re creating a foundation so that they can go out in the world, but you might not see as you said, the impact till 20 years down the line. You might never see it, but you have to trust that it’s going to be there, that you’ve done what you needed to do in alignment with them being able to be successful in the world as alums.

MO: Yes. That’s right.

MURIEL WILKINS: So, let me ask you a question. How much are you struggling now versus how you were struggling when we first started our conversation?

MO: So, it’s been really helpful to realize that I need to define success, but then I need to define it in shorter timeframes as opposed to having this very long, far off goal. So I think, that’s going to help me, that’s going to help a lot, and it’s going to help me struggle less, and it’s going to help me realize that enough is a really weird word to try to define as far as a week goes. And so I think that I hope to struggle less. I think there’s a lot to think about, and I don’t do this work alone. They’re great partners in the immediate team. And so this is just really helpful as we anticipate bigger strategic conversations as an institution and as we try to figure out how our work supports those strategic initiatives. Defining success in shorter term groups, that’s just going to be really, really helpful because it will help me feel like… It’ll help me measure what enough is, right? Because if you can figure out what does success look like in the coming academic year, then you can reverse engineer and figure out okay, by May or June of next year, if we want to be at a specific place, then okay, what do we need to do to get to that specific place?

MURIEL WILKINS: Exactly.

MO: And so, trying to make smaller goals and name what those milestones are is just going to be so helpful. So helpful. Because the phrase boiling the ocean comes up. Like that is… Of course, I want to boil the ocean. Wouldn’t that be great? No. So I struggle with the wanting to do it all. And so just remembering that you can’t and figuring out okay, what could be done in 12 months and within 24 months? And then measure the path, measure success in those smaller timeframes.

MURIEL WILKINS: In those smaller timeframes with the confidence that it will have a residual impact over and beyond the finite time limit that you’ve set.

MO: Right.

MURIEL WILKINS: Very nice.

MO: Thank you.

MURIEL WILKINS: Thank you. Hopefully, that was helpful.

MO: It was so helpful. I’ve got [inaudible 00:55:34]. So it was very helpful. Thank you so much.

MURIEL WILKINS: Sometimes, it takes a while during a coaching session to really understand my client’s underlying motivation, and we cracked this code further into the conversation as we started talking more about the years left in her career and the legacy Mo wanted to leave. She came into the conversation focused on how to be a manager of managers and how to set strategic priorities, but like with so many leaders, there was also something else at play for Mo – the desire to leave a lasting legacy.

Having a better understanding of this, why she felt the need to move quickly and why she felt frustrated when it felt like things were moving too slowly was the key to her breakthrough. Once Mo came to this realization, it helped her reframe her goals and the milestones she wanted to hit. In some ways, this reframing might help Mo reset her parameters to shift from the idea that she’s doing enough and moving fast enough to ensuring that what she’s doing is aligned with her longer term vision. This shift will help her better reach her goal of doing what needs to be done and making a lasting impact at her organization. That’s it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders. Next time…

NEXT EPISODE’S GUEST: I felt unsuccessful, both in asking for and receiving the support that I needed, but also building trust with the new leadership that I had. Slowly, my team began to be reduced.

MURIEL WILKINS: Want more of this episode? Join the Coaching Real Leaders community, where I host live discussions to unpack the coaching sessions you hear on this show, become a member at coachingrealleaderscommunity.com. You can also find more from me on LinkedIn at Muriel Wilkins. Thanks to my producer, Mary Dooe; sound editor, Nick Crnko; music composer, Brian Campbell; my assistant Emily Sofa, and the entire team at HBR. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations. And to you, our listeners who share in their journeys. If you are dealing with a leadership challenge, I’d love to hear from you and possibly have you on the show apply @coachingrealleaders.com. And of course, if you love the show and learn from it, pay it forward, share it with your friends, subscribe and leave a review on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. From the HBR Podcast Network, I’m Muriel Wilkins, and until next time, be well.