Ask the Amys

AMY GALLO: It is time for Ask the Amys.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yay.

AMY GALLO: One of my favorite types of episodes that we do.

AMY BERNSTEIN: I love doing this. Yeah.

AMY GALLO: We hear from listeners all the time, mostly through our inbox with questions. They want advice about a situation they’re facing, and we always want to help. And sometimes it leads to an episode idea, but then sometimes we just want to get into the specifics of someone’s issue and give them some advice.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah. I always learn on these episodes. I learn what’s on people’s minds, but I also learn from the process of thinking through an answer with you.

AMY GALLO: Yeah. What could be going on? What could the person try out? And also what are we missing? Because I think sometimes there’s cues in the email or in what they say that just makes us realize there’s something else going on. But we are sitting on this wealth of knowledge that is the archive on hbr.org of all of our articles. You and I get to interact with experts all the time who give this advice.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah. We like the HBR archive bots.

AMY GALLO: Yeah.

AMY BERNSTEIN: So, should we get started?

AMY GALLO: Yeah. Let me start with this one. From someone who had listened to the episode, The Ups and Downs of Being a First-Time Manager from season eight, which actually led to our How to Manage series, which came out in June. And she has a follow-up question. She writes, “Technically, I’m not a manager, no one reports up to me, but younger associates work with me on many projects where I am the lead. We report into the same boss, but he’s very hands-off to the point where I’m essentially these people’s manager in theory. I don’t have a say into their performance review, salary or career progression within the company. Any suggestions on how to navigate being a manager in spirit, but not on paper?”

AMY BERNSTEIN: There’s a lot going on in this.

AMY GALLO: Mm-hmm.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Part of it is the challenge of leading without authority.

AMY GALLO: Yes.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Right? And particularly in a world of projects, we’re all going to have to face that challenge. How do you lead with that authority? And I think that if a lack of definition is making her uncomfortable, then maybe she should propose to her boss a definition. So, tell me what I can do and what I can’t do, or better yet, given this project and the needs, here’s how I propose the decision rights work.

AMY GALLO: Yeah. Well, and then it sounds to me what I was hearing from her is that she’s really mentoring these people, even though they technically have this other boss that she also has, but now they’re coming to her.

AMY BERNSTEIN: She can help them as well, figure out how to advance the way they want to advance. And the other thing she can do is, even though no one’s asking her for input into her mentee’s performance, doesn’t mean she can’t give it. Right?

AMY GALLO: Right. She can lean into the informal ways she’s leading, giving people direction, mentoring them, and like you said, speaking up when it’s time for their performance review: “I have thoughts on the way they’ve performed. I’d like to share.” And while she can’t necessarily make the concrete decisions around salary and career progression, she can be a positive force in their career.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah. And she actually is managing some. You look at that last part of the question that she asked how to navigate being a manager in spirit, but not on paper. I think that is where she should go to her boss with a constructive suggestion of how to define decision rights and responsibilities.

AMY GALLO: Well, and I think my advice would be to maybe do the managing in spirit for a while. Does she like it? With the attitude of yes, it’s going to add time and energy to her plate, which she may not have, but that experience will ideally help her later. Maybe in this role gets more formalized. Maybe she does take on managing some of the team members. Maybe she does get to have more decision rights, but also whatever role she takes on next, she now gets to say she has management experience even if it’s not formal.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Exactly. And to pay attention to the dynamics of the team and how her leadership lands with people over whom she does not have formal authority. And to figure out how she wants to show up in a leadership role when she doesn’t have direct reports.

AMY GALLO: Yes. Well, and it’s an opportunity to try things out, see what works, what doesn’t. I mean, in some ways, the pressure’s off because no one’s expecting her to do this. She can lean into it in any way she wants. And she doesn’t have to do all of the paperwork and all the stuff that people say they don’t like about management.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah. No one ever said, “Boy, I wish I could do five more performance reviews.”

AMY GALLO: No one.

AMY BERNSTEIN: No.

AMY GALLO: Ever.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah.

AMY GALLO: I will say, the thing that concerns me is that this becomes a suck on her time, on her energy, and she is in no way compensated or recognized for it. I would encourage her to document what she’s doing. Write it down, in what way is she playing the role of manager. Keep track of that. So, if there does become an opportunity that she can either step into her boss’s role or maybe manage a few of those people on the team, that she has the evidence that she’s been doing it.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Such a good point. And a lot of times people are held back from promotion because they aren’t people managers. And this is where I would pull out that document that you just described and say, “well, I’m not formally a people manager, but I am an informal people manager and I’ve been pretty successful at it.”

AMY GALLO: Yeah. Again, leaning into the opportunity that’s been presented to her. As long as she’s making sure she is keeping her eye on the prize, which is ultimately to get rewarded and recognized for making this effort.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah. Well put. So, let’s take the next question. And this one comes from a woman who left the workforce for two years to have children, came back as an assistant and then got another role in the same company as a manager. One and a half years into this role, she says, “I’m still having trouble with a few teammates. I’ve done all that I can to help serve this part of the team, but still find that I can’t win them over. It doesn’t help that I’m the only female in leadership in this male dominated industry, and young enough to be their daughter. I’m hoping that you can weigh in on my experience so that I can grow and become a stronger leader for my team.” All right, Amy, unpack that.

AMY GALLO: The first thing that comes to mind is Theresa Cardador’s research about the pressures on women in male-dominated industries to leave, and the fact that they’re often given these managerial roles where they don’t have the same expertise as the people they’re managing. And so, then they feel like “a fish out of water,” to steal the subject line of this email we got from this woman here. That the distance between her and the people she’s managing just keeps getting greater. And I think really what she needs to think about, is there a way to win over these teammates? And it’s interesting, she calls them teammates. She doesn’t call them direct reports, even though she’s their supervisor. There’s a couple of things in here that I want to dig into next. Let’s talk a little bit about how she wins their trust, but also just about her mindset. So, let’s get there in a minute. But in terms of building the trust, one of the things I would encourage her to do is to think about what is it those people want. And not they want a male manager, they want someone who understands that – what is it they actually need? Some resources that would help them do their job better, an approval from finance or HR. Is there something that she can help them win to show that she’s on their side.

AMY BERNSTEIN: And it shows competence, right?

AMY GALLO: Correct.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Frances Frei and Anne Morriss have this famous triangle of trust, and the three components are competence, right?

AMY GALLO: Mm-hmm.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Empathy. And then the third one, I always forget the middle one.

AMY GALLO: Authenticity.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Authenticity. Thank you. So, your idea, I think, really deals with the authenticity and the empathy piece of that. What do you need? I’m going to help you get it. The competence thing. She mentions that she’s younger than they, and she’s the only woman. I think digging in on the competence thing, they probably have expertise that she doesn’t have, but she wasn’t put in that role to have that expertise. So, she needs to think about her purpose in this particular role. And then, that’s the game she’s playing. And by game, I don’t mean it’s not some sham, but she needs to think about where she’s going to play and how she’s going to win on that front.

AMY GALLO: I agree. And I think that she needs to maybe even go back to the people who gave her this position, who saw the potential in her and ask, “what was it you saw me-

AMY BERNSTEIN: Oh, great idea.

AMY GALLO: That made you take –“ And she actually says, we didn’t read it, but she says she, “against all odds, was given this job.” I want to say, “no, not against all odds. Rewarded based on who you are.”

AMY BERNSTEIN: Well, that’s the mindset piece that you brought up. I think we should get into that. What you’re thinking.

AMY GALLO: I mean even the language around, “help me become a stronger leader for my team,” which I love, it’s that servant mindset. But what I worry is that she’s actually coming from a place of deficit. “I’m lucky to have this job. No wonder these guys don’t trust me.” Rather than, “here’s what I bring that these guys don’t have,” which is probably something that team really needed or she wouldn’t have been given the role.

AMY BERNSTEIN: That change in channel. I come in with my own strengths. I was put here for a reason and I have a lot to learn. Help me learn it. And in the meantime, let’s address your needs. She’s got to give it her best shot. It’s hard to know what’s in their heads.

AMY GALLO: It is. And to be fair, their heads may be full of bias, ageism-

AMY BERNSTEIN: Or not.

AMY GALLO: Sexism. We don’t know.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Right. Definitely don’t let that be the loudest voice in her head. You’re the only woman. You’re young enough to be their daughter. This may be true. What are you going to do about it?

AMY GALLO: Exactly.

AMY BERNSTEIN: And the other thing that I just want to remind of is that her role as manager is to orchestrate the efforts of her team so that the whole is greater the sum of the parts. It’s to remove obstacles. It’s to bring out the best in them, to help them work together, to help them move forward. And in doing that part well, she’s going to establish trust, right?

AMY GALLO: Yeah. And two other thoughts. One is that it sounds like there’s just a few of these folks who she feels like she’s not working well with. I would think about what worked in building the relationships with the other people, and can you double down on some of that? If there’s someone you are managing that you really trust, maybe even ask them like, “I was new to this role, what made you believe I could do this?”

AMY BERNSTEIN: And then my experience tells me is that there are some people you’re just never going to win over. And then further experience tells me that when you stop trying, you often do win them over.

AMY GALLO: Well, that is interesting. I mean, maybe she looks like she’s trying so hard. I think that line is also about your mindset of, am I doing everything in this relationship to try to make it work, or am I doing my part and waiting for the other side to show up? Because if they’re not doing anything, that’s where you start chasing the approval or chasing the relationship.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Do not chase.

AMY GALLO: No, just do your part. Establish the boundary. I’ve done my part. Now it’s time for them to show up.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Exactly.

AMY GALLO: And that mindset, I think, will make them not sniff that desperation.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Exactly. You can change the dynamic.

AMY GALLO: Yeah. If she does all this and it still doesn’t work, she’s still finding these particular teammates tough, I do think there might be a chance, an opportunity to sit down with, not all of them at the same time, but maybe there’s one who’s the real influencer among the group and say, “I feel like we haven’t had the best working relationship since I started, and I’m just curious, is there anything I could do to better support you?” And just make it a really direct, honest conversation. “I sense there’s some tension still between us and I really want to clear the air. What can we do to do that?”

AMY BERNSTEIN: I mean, don’t let the reason for this problem be that she didn’t try.

AMY GALLO: Yeah.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Right?

AMY GALLO: Yeah. And I still love the advice you just gave, which is sometimes you won’t win them over.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Sometimes you won’t win them over, and that is not catastrophic.

AMY GALLO: Yeah. That’s the other thing I would ask her. If she says she’s having trouble with these teammates, is the trouble hindering the work? Or is it really just for her, I can understand as a manager wanting your team to like you, wanting your team to show you respect, but is it actually standing in the way of her doing her job? If it is, absolutely. Take all these steps that we’ve talked about. If it’s not, maybe let it go for a while.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah. Let it go. See what happens. Just in changing the way she thinks about her role, she might change the way these resistors see her.

AMY GALLO: Let’s take another question from someone who’s also a first-time manager. She takes this new role. It was a great promotion. Then the supervisor, her supervisor tells her in the first month that the person who was in her position was actually devoted and now it’s her responsibility to let them go. On top of that, there are also two or three staff. This supervisor tells her, who’ve been there too long and have too high of a salary and she needs to find a way to get rid of them. So, she’s asking, how do you deal with the feeling of being a villain who came into a new company and disturbed people’s life, literally?

AMY BERNSTEIN: Boy, that is really tough. I mean, first of all, she should recognize that she was put in a horrific position. Hiring someone and then laying on their desk the demand that they fire people-

AMY GALLO: And she’s a first-time manager. She’s never managed before.

AMY BERNSTEIN: And she was totally set up.

AMY GALLO: Yeah. She was totally set up. She needs help.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yes.

AMY GALLO: There’s no way she can navigate this or be expected to navigate this on her own. So, she needs help from that supervisor. She needs help from maybe HR on how to navigate this. Maybe there’s a mentor who’s maybe done this before, let people go before who can mentor her through this. She should not take this on alone.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Don’t take it on alone. And is this the company you want to work for? Is this the manager you want to work for? Because this is just the first thing that’s happened. So, there’s that. If there’s no HR help to be gotten, which is possibility, I do think she should ask her manager to sit in the room with her and help her have this conversation.

AMY GALLO: Yeah. For sure.

AMY BERNSTEIN: And that the argument there is, “Clearly I was brought in to do this, and that doesn’t seem right.” And she has every right to call out her manager on that. That is very poor management.

AMY GALLO: Well, and I think about all those articles we’ve published about middle managers who have to deliver news that they don’t agree with or that they’re concerned about, that they don’t believe in. And whether that’s a major organizational change, restructuring, layoffs, and a lot of the advice is to really try to understand, and I think I’ve even heard you say this, try to understand the rationale. So, I would just ask a ton of questions.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yes. Of the manager who gave her this directive. And to keep asking until she’s satisfied, because she cannot deliver this news without feeling that she’s understood it. And to push back. I mean, I have to tell you, I once came into a new job and was told you could go ahead and fire X, Y, and Z person.

AMY GALLO: Really?

AMY BERNSTEIN: And I said, “that doesn’t seem like a very good way to come into a new job, “and didn’t do it. The idea that I can make my own team, that’s a positive message, but telling me that I can get rid of people before I’ve even gotten a chance to know… that’s why I said, “How can I fire people? I don’t know?”

AMY GALLO: You’re making me think maybe there’s more room. The way she’s explained this to us, it sounds like she’s been giving these directives. By asking those questions, which I think she’s totally in her right to ask, maybe she’ll find out there’s actually a little more room here. Either time-wise, they don’t have to be let go right away. I would say, as a first time manager, and this is essentially I think what you were saying in that position you were in of, I want to get to know these people before I make that call.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Right. Well, as she’s investigating the rationale for getting rid of these people, if it’s a question of performance, the first thing I would ask is, “have they been told that their performance is disappointing? And have they been given a way forward? Has anyone tried to coach them?” The other thing is, that if this is a question of budget or we’re downsizing, then how are these decisions made? “How did you decide on person A?” Right?

AMY GALLO: Mm-hmm.

AMY BERNSTEIN: I don’t understand a rationale called “they’ve been there too long.”

AMY GALLO: Yes.

AMY BERNSTEIN: So, I would push back hard against that. What does that even mean?

AMY GALLO: Right. I have to say, I don’t feel super hopeful for this situation because it just sounds… What I’m really hoping is that there’s more room here than she thinks, and that by asking questions and asking for help, she’ll find out there’s more behind these decisions than what she’s been given. However, if we take it what’s happening at face value, there’s part of me that is like, get out.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Get out.

AMY GALLO: Yeah.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Get out. And if people ask, if you’re interviewing for jobs and people ask, “So you were given this great opportunity, why’d you leave?” You can say, you don’t have to give details, but you can say, “I had a profound disagreement on management approach, and I thought it was better all the way around if I separated myself from that company.”

AMY GALLO: Yeah. I mean, she might even say, “The way I was asked to manage was not aligned with my values, and I’m looking for a position in which I can be a great manager and also act according to my values.”

AMY BERNSTEIN: Right. People get trapped by their current jobs, because they can’t pull the camera back far enough to see that this isn’t the last job they’ll ever have.

AMY GALLO: Yeah. The thing that seems so unfair is for this to be her first experience, someone with 10 years, 20 years, 30 years of managing experience would still find this way hard.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Oh my God, I would lose sleep over this. But this is a crucible moment. She can’t let it break her.

AMY GALLO: Yeah. I mean, again, I go back to the ask for so much help, HR, your manager, whoever you need to ask for help from. This is not just about the impact on the people who she is supposed to be letting go. Let’s say she’s able to find a way to do that that’s aligned with her values, these three people. She still has a team who sees her as someone who came in and let what seems probably a good proportion of the team go. And so, I think she really has to think about the impact on her of these immediate decisions, but also on the broader team.

AMY BERNSTEIN: I totally agree with that. And again, she shouldn’t do anything until she is satisfied that she understands the rationale and she can embrace it.

AMY GALLO: And if she can’t, maybe she can go back to her old company.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Find her next job.

AMY GALLO: And find her next job.

AMY BERNSTEIN: She’s now had invaluable experience and she knows herself a lot better.

AMY GALLO: Right. Yeah. Deepest, deepest sympathy for this one, right?

AMY BERNSTEIN: Oh my gosh. Such a bad position to be put in.

AMY GALLO: Yeah.

AMY BERNSTEIN: So, let’s hear now from a listener who is also working for a really bad boss.

AMY GALLO: They’re everywhere, aren’t they?

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yes, they are. He dismisses her ideas, her suggestions for how to help a project move more efficiently. And he insists that the team works late nights and weekends because that’s what’s “correct.” He refuses to admit his faults, and he likes to blame our listener whenever she raises the boundary issues about working late nights and weekends, or if she questions him on strategy. She does admit that she’s challenging him, but she doesn’t do it to get him angry. She’s asking him these questions so she can understand. She’s doing it in a calm tone, but he still gets rattled and he gets pissed off, and she’s now worried about the success of this project. When she’s gone above her boss to leadership to raise her concerns. They tell her, “Just fall in line,” do what this boss tells her to do. But she’s already ruffled her boss’s feathers, and now she’s in a place she says, where it’s basically impossible to change his behavior or protect herself from the effects he has on her. She says her mental health is suffering, and she also has seen him giving feedback over her head to leaders without even sharing it with her. So, he’s going behind her back and talking about her without giving her a chance.

AMY GALLO: Because she challenged him,

AMY BERNSTEIN: Because she challenged him. So, he’s undermining her, right?

AMY GALLO: Yep.

AMY BERNSTEIN: And so, she called him out on this and asked him to share his feedback so she could improve, so she could take some action. So, now she’s documenting her own work just so she has the evidence that she’s doing what she’s supposed to do. So, she writes, “I honestly feel like I should leave this project as there is no way we can change bad management styles. I’m curious about your point of view. How would you suggest we get along with bad managers without losing our sanity and our health?” All right, Amy, that’s an easy one for you.

AMY GALLO: Yeah, yeah, totally. No problem. So, I would just first say documentation is so key. I’m so, glad she’s doing that. Keep doing it. Document not just your own work and what you’re doing, but also any interactions with him. I just think that’s going to be crucial. It sounds like this might come to a head again, so I would just be prepared for that. And then I think it sounds like she has three, maybe two options. Well, one option could be she says, “we can’t change bad management styles.” Sometimes that’s true. I think most of the time that’s true. But is there another person she can go to? I would just ask herself, has she really exhausted all channels? And the answer may be yes. It sounds like she’s done a lot.

AMY BERNSTEIN: I mean, she’s gone to the leaders of that project.

AMY GALLO: I know. I know. So, that’s why I said maybe two options, because I’m not sure. That’s one. The two other options are to stay on the project and figure out how to tolerate this behavior. I do think if she just falls in line, he may calm down. I think he’s reacting to her challenge. And then I think the other option is to leave. I mean, it sounds like it’s a consulting or professional services firm. There may be other projects she can get staffed at.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah, that’s where I would go because I think she’s made a gallant effort.

AMY GALLO: I know, I know.

AMY BERNSTEIN: And this guy is insisting on late nights and weekends, she raises legitimate issues with that, what she calls the boundaries, and she got no satisfaction on it. So, I get that her health is suffering, and I bet it’s physical and mental health. Those long hours take a toll.

AMY GALLO: Yeah.

AMY BERNSTEIN: I noticed that she asks us how we’d suggest she get along with bad managers without losing our sanity and health, and I’m not sure that’s even possible. If you can’t tolerate their management, then I don’t think getting along with them is the goal.

AMY GALLO: Well, I mean, I think this boss reminds me of two chapters in my book, one about insecure managers and one about what I call the tormentor, someone who you hope would be a mentor but actually undermines you. And I think he falls into both those categories.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yes.

AMY GALLO: And I do think she’s done a lot of the things already that I would advise. So, I think we have to fast-forward to yes, you’ve tried to get along. The question really is about protecting your sanity and your health. Then it’s about disengaging, recognizing this is not about you. This is not your failure. This is a situation you’ve been put in that isn’t fair. Is there a way to heads down do your work? Are there people on the team who you enjoy working with? Can you find ways to spend more time with them? Can you find ways to even vent with one another about maybe the impact he’s having? Sometimes even just knowing you’re not in alone can help. That said, I’m not sure she’s going to get there based on what she’s saying.

AMY BERNSTEIN: I hope she asks herself what she’s getting out of this job other than a paycheck.

AMY GALLO: Well, what she’s going to know this project, right?

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah, exactly.

AMY GALLO: That’s, I think, the escape valve here. Is if this is a professional services firm where it won’t be extremely damaging to her career, she wouldn’t lose her job, where she can say, “It’s just not working. I’ve talked to you all about how it’s not working. Is it possible to get put on another?”

AMY BERNSTEIN: Right. And if it’s not possible to get put on another project, is there another company which she might want to work?

AMY GALLO: Yeah. I talk to people all the time who are just have terrible bosses but don’t want to leave the job for whatever reason and have tried, really made gallant efforts just like this woman has. And it is really about finding the emotional distance from it. And it sounds like she’s been hooked into it for a while. And could she just give herself, even if it’s just a week, if she let herself for a week disengage from this person’s behavior, yes, she’s going to have to work late, yes, she’s going to have to fall into line, do things that she wouldn’t normally do, and she thinks they’re not necessarily the right direction for the project, but if she does that and disengages emotionally from it for a week, how does she feel?

AMY BERNSTEIN: Exactly. I mean, just give herself a break there. He clearly doesn’t want any help in managing this project. He wants to get the project done. I’d make my peace with that.

AMY GALLO: Yeah. Maybe his ego is really sensitive. Maybe he’s deeply insecure, but something about her and challenging him has really put him in a position of not being able to be open to any feedback, being open to considering changing things. And I think once you get someone in that corner, they start to behave like a caged animal.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yes.

AMY GALLO: And she’s got to back off from that.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yes.

AMY GALLO: It’s not effective.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Well, she’s banging her head against a wall.

AMY GALLO: Exactly.

AMY BERNSTEIN: So-

AMY GALLO: Yeah.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah.

AMY GALLO: Okay. Let’s go to one more. Also, someone who actually was in a difficult situation, but sounds like she’s gotten out of it, which I love. So, she left her job that she was at for two and a half years, and she’s about to be starting at a new company with a better role. She sounds like it’s checking all the boxes for her in terms of what she wanted in a next position. The problem is, she’s worried that the baggage of her previous job, in particular the manager she had in this last – she hasn’t used this word, but I would say toxic environment. She said that she had managers who relied on passive aggressive comments, microaggressions, micromanagement, were biased against women. So, she’s worried that that previous experience is going to affect this new role. And so, she’s asking for our advice about what happens when you leave a job where you didn’t have the best bosses, which sounds kind, honestly, she had terrible bosses, and how do you not let that affect your new position?

AMY BERNSTEIN: Well, she’s already ahead of the game because she has self-awareness. So, she can be aware that her new colleagues are innocent until proven guilty. And that’s a question of fairness, but it’s also giving herself a chance to thrive in the new environment, right?

AMY GALLO: Yeah, exactly. I love that. And I think she needs some closure from that last job. I have been given the advice in my life many times to write a letter to myself about something and I’m always rolling my eyes. I’m like, yeah, yeah. But I actually did it. I went through actually this tough period in the spring and someone said, just write a letter to yourself about how you got through it. I’ve actually looked at that letter multiple times because it was like giving myself compassion. It was reflecting on my strengths, what I did to get through that period. And I feel like, I don’t like to give this advice, because it does make me roll my eyes a little, but I do wonder if she might write a letter to herself about how she survived that experience.

AMY BERNSTEIN: I love this idea.

AMY GALLO: And what she’s taking away from it and what she wants to do differently, just as a putting in a bookend on… that’s done.

AMY BERNSTEIN: And turn the horror into something a little more constructive. What she learned about bad management, what she learned about herself and her own values as both an employee and as a manager. And how she wants to turn this terrible experience into better leadership when she gets that opportunity.

AMY GALLO: I mean, I would even fold a piece of paper in half, and write down on the left side all the things she does not want to do as a manager herself because that’s in her control. She can’t control this new environment. And all the things she will do, and that might be values, that might be behaviors, but then for her it’s really clear; this is what I can control. This is what I’m doing to be my best self in this new role. But I think you also, when you started off right away with self-awareness, I think you hit the nail on the head because she also needs to be aware that she is going to be prone to see those things.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Absolutely. Absolutely. I would say if she could give herself the breathing room to be open and to give herself a fresh start and to give her new colleagues the chance to prove themselves as great coworkers, then it might be that the pain of the last experience fades more quickly. Yeah.

AMY GALLO: Heidi Grant wrote this article for us about goal setting years ago, and in it she had this tool. “If this happens, then…” – it’s like “if then” statements, and I feel like that tool could be adapted here. In that she could say, “if I start to think that I am being micromanaged, then I will try to give the person the benefit of the doubt. If I notice it happened twice, I will document it so I can make sure I’m seeing it clearly.” Whatever. Just creating if then statements for what will happen if she starts to find herself triggered by what she’s seen as feeling like it’s the same as the last [inaudible 00:32:44].

AMY BERNSTEIN: And that’ll save her from leaping to conclusion shaped by the past experience that may not actually be apt for the present one.

AMY GALLO: Yeah.

AMY BERNSTEIN: So, Amy, I get so much out of listening to your advice, and you’ve been doing this for a while, and in fact you have an advice column on hbr.org called Getting Along, and you cover a broad range of topics.

AMY GALLO: Yeah. I mean, so far, I’ve answered questions from people about what to do when a coworker’s sabotaging you, but your boss won’t pay attention. One person was a woman of color who was trying to navigate what she called this frat-like subculture in her organization. And one was from a guy who just felt like his boss didn’t trust him at all.

AMY BERNSTEIN: So, how do people actually ask you for advice?

AMY GALLO: So, if you look for those articles online – actually, we’ll put one in the show notes, so you can see there’s a link at the bottom how you can submit a question. So, if you have a question like one you heard today, feel free to submit it there and hopefully I’ll be able to answer it in a future installment.

AMY BERNSTEIN: You are very wise.

AMY GALLO: Gosh, sometimes I feel like the things I say are just repeats of what you’ve told me before.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Not exactly, Amy.

AMY GALLO: That’s our show. I’m Amy Gallo.

AMY BERNSTEIN: And I’m Amy Bernstein. Next week, have you ever considered joining a board?

SPEAKER 1: It has been one of the most incredible professional experiences I’ve had. One of the greatest parts of my career.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Hear from several women who’ve tried it, loved it, and volunteered to share what they wished they’d known going in.

AMY GALLO: HBR has more podcasts to help you manage yourself, your team, and your organization, find them at hbr.org/podcast or search HBR in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Women at Work’s editorial and production team is Amanda Kersey, Maureen Hoch, Tina Tobey Mack, Rob Eckhardt, Erica Truxler, Ian Fox, and Hannah Bates. Robin Moore composed the scene music.

AMY GALLO: Thanks for listening. Email us anytime, including for advice, at womenatwork@hbr.org.