How Do I Stay Motivated After Surviving Layoffs?

MURIEL WILKINS: I’m Muriel Wilkins, and this is Coaching Real Leaders, part of the HBR podcast network. I’m a longtime executive coach who works with highly successful leaders who’ve hit a bump in the road. My job is to help them get over that bump by clarifying their goals and figuring out a way to reach them so that hopefully, they can lead with a little more ease. I typically work with clients over the course of several months, but on this show, we have a one-time coaching meeting focusing on a specific leadership challenge they’re facing. Today’s guest is someone we’ll call Melissa to protect her confidentiality. She has a background in leading strategic programs and joined a large tech company a few years ago, and then quickly shifted roles within that organization.

MELISSA: I was very, very fortunate to find a role that not only fit my skillset, but fit where I was in my life at that moment and where I wanted to be from a passion perspective and a personal mission perspective. So, it gave me the opportunity to unify my passion and my mission.

MURIEL WILKINS: Melissa now uses her skillset to build community within her organization, and she feels a strong connection to her purpose in this role.

MELISSA: I really, really wanted to share my knowledge with others, learn from others, and create a community that supported each other from a professional perspective. Even if their starts were not what they imagined, even if they had been through multiple setbacks in their lives, I wanted us to all be successful and thrive together and be successful in what we do.

MURIEL WILKINS: But she, like many others right now, is feeling a little uneasy because of circumstances beyond her control. As we meet for our coaching session, we’re in the midst of an economic downturn and many companies are drastically downsizing. Melissa’s company also recently announced some pretty massive layoffs and it’s weighing on her.

MELISSA: I work for a company where we thought we will not be impacted, and then come to find out, we were not in a place where we could assume that that was not the case. And unfortunately, a short while ago, a lot of people were impacted, and we are now in a place where we are adjusting to that, and I don’t know how to handle it because it’s something that I did not expect to happen to us. So, that feeling of safety has been taken away. This is the first time in my professional career where I’m seeing something like this happen and also in the way it happened. So, I’m really dealing with those personal feelings and emotions. My work has never been more aligned to my passion than it is now, and I think that’s why I’m currently in a place where I’m like, “I don’t want to lose this.” I’m really holding onto it because I’m like, “This is the best I’ve ever felt in my career, and I want to maintain this feeling of I’m doing what I should be doing in this phase of my life.”

MURIEL WILKINS: Melissa is in a tough place where she’s truly found a role that aligns with her personal purpose. She’s doing the work she wants to do in an organization where she feels she can make an impact, but all of this has come into question for her as she deals with the aftermath of surviving the layoffs at her company. Let’s dive in now as I ask her more about what she’s feeling as a result of these changes.

MELISSA: The biggest feeling for me is that no one is safe. I don’t believe in job security anymore. I feel like it does not exist in the way I thought it existed. So, my definition of job security was the fact that the contract that I went into with my employer will be honored when the time comes for either them to break away from the contract or for me to break away from the contract, and I never assumed that it could be over overnight. So, for me, that sense of lack of security has been the biggest one. And also hearing from the stories and experiences that people have had, hearing people who were strong performers, people who’ve put their whole lives into this company who’ve worked for multiple years, being let go also made me question if my working hard and doing the work that I’m doing, the quality that I’m doing it actually gives me any sense of security when a time this comes. It’s like, “What am I working towards? Am I working towards something because I want to be doing it, or am I working towards something because I know that my company will honor this when the time comes for difficult decisions to be made?”

MURIEL WILKINS: So, what are you working towards?

MELISSA: I’m working towards ensuring that…

MURIEL WILKINS: Take your time. It’s okay, Melissa. What’s going on for you right now?

MELISSA: It’s really the feeling of, you hear the pain and the experiences that people are having and going through it, but wanting to help at the same time and not even knowing if… It just feels like a lot is out of our control. Can we actually do anything to improve it? Can we actually do anything to make it better? We keep pushing forward and we’re motivating ourselves to do things, but is it actually going to change? Is it going to be better? Are we going to help people? Are we going to come out of this better? Are we going to come out of this stronger? Or are we going to just lose ourselves?

MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah. I mean, first of all, I want to acknowledge that what you and it sounds like a lot of your colleagues have experienced is no small thing. It sounds like it was at scale, which is a different feeling. If you think about it, it’s like there’s a difference when you’re driving down the highway and you see a car accident where it’s one car that bumped into another one, crashed into another one. Even if it’s not fatal in any way, but there’s a car accident between two cars and you’re like, Oh, it’s an accident. There’s a difference between that versus you drive down the highway and you see oh my gosh, it’s 30 cars.

MELISSA: Yeah, yeah.

MURIEL WILKINS: Still not fatal, but it’s 30. So, it becomes the scale or the enormity of it. So, I want to acknowledge that. I want to acknowledge that as you said, this is the first time you’ve ever gone through anything like this. I want to acknowledge that you didn’t expect it. So, there’s this sense of I thought I knew what I was dealing with and come to find out I don’t, I did not, through no fault of your own. It’s not your fault that you didn’t know. So, you’re dealing with the uncertainty. And what has driven you in terms of the part of your career that really fulfills your personal mission, your personal vision is to help. And now you’re wondering, Is my personal drive, my personal mission, is it even relevant in this environment? That’s a lot. I just want to pause for a sec. That’s a lot. And so, if you’re feeling, which as we’re talking to each other and I’m experiencing you, I want to just pause and acknowledge it’s a lot. So, for it to feel like a lot is actually aligned with the situation.

MELISSA: Yeah. I think for me… And I will get to the question that you originally asked. For me, one of the things that drives me is my sense of responsibility, my sense of responsibility to my community. I grew up in a culture that is very community focused, where we do good not only for ourselves, but the community and the people around us, the village around us. And I brought that same thinking to my workplace where I want to make sure my team is good. I want to make sure the clients and customers that I serve with, the work that I do and the services that I provide are good. I want to make sure that the communities that we support are good. It’s that sense of responsibility for making sure that everyone around us is taken care of, or at least we’ve done what we can. I grew up in a culture where you ask someone, “Have you eaten?” So, it’s like the basic needs of the individuals I met. So, being able to have that conversation and being able to cater to other people’s needs has always been something that I grew up with and something that I’ve carried with me. So, going through a situation like this, I carry my own personal feelings and my personal challenges, but also a strong responsibility for the community, and I don’t know where to stop and where to start because I’m also acknowledging that there’s so much that is out of my control. So I’m like, Are there small things that I can do to take care of my community while there’s chaos around? Are there things that I can do for my community right now that will potentially serve individuals but maybe not serve the company as a whole? And that is something that I’m trying to get clarity on. How can I go through this with my own feelings, but also serve the community and the people out there that I care so much about? I care about the company and the company pays me, but I care more about the people that are going through this.

MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah. And there was a time where the people were the company. There was a time where the people were the company, and now there’s a dissonance where there’s the people and then there’s the company, and it seems like there’s some disconnect there for you.

MELISSA: Absolutely.

MURIEL WILKINS: Now, whether that’s the case or not, I’m not here to judge one way or the other. It’s just more I’m reflecting back the way that you’re seeing it, which is not your usual based on what you’ve experienced so far. So, Melissa, I think there’s a couple of things going on, and I’d like to figure out which route we’re going to take. So I think on the one hand, there are a lot of assumptions and beliefs and expectations that you’ve had of how a company behaves, how it treats its employees, what job security means. There were a lot of assumptions that I think now you’ve come to face with saying, “Oh my goodness, there’s this other world that I either didn’t believe exist or chose not to believe exists that I’ve now found myself in.” I’m chuckling a little bit, but I don’t want to belittle it. It is literally breaking, throwing a stone at what you believed the world should be like in the working place. So, it’s questioning your beliefs. I think when that happens, there’s an opportunity to explore, How attached am I to the way I think things should happen versus, This is the way I desire things to happen. And I understand that sometimes things don’t happen the way that I desire. And so then what? So, I think that’s one jumping off point. The first question is, what happens when what I think should happen doesn’t happen? And then the second is, what happens when I have a full affront that there is a lot more than I thought that’s out of my control? And what do I do then? So, I think those are the two things. One is your expectations, your beliefs, which are profound for you, were not met. And then secondly, there’s a lot that’s out of your control. And then I think third is, as you said, you’re somebody who you have this responsibility to community to make sure everyone’s needs are met. And so there’s a situation here now where you feel like people’s needs were not met, the contract was broken. I want to alleviate that and I have no idea how to. So, then becomes like, Well, what is your responsibility? So, which direction would you like to go in? What would be most helpful to you?

MELISSA: It will be most helpful to me to figure out how to adjust when things happen that are out of my control because I’m currently in that place where yeah, my beliefs were broken, but I need to accept it. I’m working for this company, don’t plan to leave anytime soon. So, I need to accept that it’s been done, and how do we move on? So, I would really benefit from learning more about how do I handle the lack of control that I’m feeling, and how do I adjust myself to be able to function and do great work in this situation?

MURIEL WILKINS: First of all, I love that you made the distinction between, you pivoted a little bit where you started off with, How do I adjust when things are out of my control? And then you said, How do I handle when things are out of my control? And then you went back to, How do I adjust when things are out of my control? There’s a difference between handling something and adjusting to something. Handling something is literally, you’re just trying to hold the handle. You’re trying to hold on. Adjust is, Okay, I accept that things have changed. Doesn’t mean that I’m passive, doesn’t mean that I’m happy about it, but I accept that things are not the way they are. What do I need to do to be able to move with the reality of the way things are? So, if we were to fast-forward 12 months from now and we were having a conversation, you and I, I checked in on you as I do with many of my clients, and I’d say, “What’s going on?” And you were like, Oh my gosh, I feel like I have found myself again fully adjusted, what would that look like to you?

MELISSA: For me, it would look like I personally have that sense of we did what we should have done in times like these. So yes, we adjusted, or personally starting with me, I adjusted to the current state and we were successful. That will be the story that I would like to tell in 12 months. And what does success mean in this context? I personally was not burnt out, is my number one through the process. I don’t want to lose myself and lose my health and be impacted. So, that’s number one. Number two is success for me personally looks like I have a sense of fulfillment of the work that we did. So, how we serve the community in the aspect of the work that we own. And a third thing is I would like to still feel like we drove positive change. So, out of the chaos, out of people feeling let down and dealing with my own personal feeling of disappointment, I still want us to feel and know that we led culture change and something became better through the year. If we spoke in 12 months and this happened, I will be very happy that we accomplished that.

MURIEL WILKINS: Wonderful. I want you to be happy. That’s what we’re going to aim for. Happy Melissa. Melissa is facing something a lot of people go through at some point in their career, not being laid off herself, but dealing with the aftermath of being a leader who stays on at the company after an event like that. It’s complicated by the fact that she’s also doing work she really believes in and doesn’t want to lose momentum or motivation within herself or lose buy-in from those around her. And while what she’s facing is the fallout from the layoffs, the underlying issue is really how she deals with things beyond her control. So, the next step was to figure out how she defines success in this new normal before deciding on the roadmap to get there. What I’ve heard from her so far is a desire for her work to continue to be relevant, to create insights and to drive change at the organization. What is less clear and might be hard for her to know is the order of magnitude, how much she can drive these things given the changing circumstances. So, I reframe the question for her to be less around what she thinks she should do and more about what she believes she could do to see how that might change her perspective on the situation.

MELISSA: I think when I hear the word could, it takes into consideration what is in our control, and the fact that there will be things that we cannot do. “Could” gives me more grace. When I think of what can I do versus what should I do, “should” puts a lot of responsibility again and the load and the burden. And “could” adds some grace because it’s like, there might be something we can’t do because of an external factor, X, Y, Z. I struggle with that though because I don’t do well with thinking that there will be things that we cannot do as a planning strategy, but I know that we do build plans that change and adapt and we are successful in the end if we adapt successfully. I think for me, it’s around framing how do we plan for could when I’m used to planning for should?

MURIEL WILKINS: And so, what would it look like for you to plan for both?

MELISSA: Ooh. That’s very interesting. So, let me play this in concrete ways for us. So, let’s say now, we’re planning to work on six programs and initiatives, and we think that that’s what we should do. So, the six programs are on our should list. We’ve gotten the budget allocation, the resources, and we’re planning for that. And then a could plan would allow for if we dropped one of the six and decided to do something else because that was what was in our realm of influence and what was in our control, that will also be okay, or if we dropped something totally and we will need to accept that that’s okay because our could plan does not expect us to achieve all six or not be successful. So, it doesn’t say we’re not successful if we don’t accomplish all six. So, I could plan for six, but be okay with revisiting that plan and being more adaptable and flexible to allow us have those conversations on is there something else that is influencing this plan and is there something else that will make this plan not be successful?

MURIEL WILKINS: I mean, I think you’re giving yourself range and I think you’re accounting through the two scenarios. If you want to think about them as guardrails, the “could” is, Here’s what we know with certainty as of today, as of today, as of this minute. Because really, are we really certain about anything? I think that’s the lesson here and being comfortable with that. But as of this minute, here’s what we think we can do with certainty and should do with certainty, and here’s what we think we could do and should do if all these other factors became certain, but we don’t know. But if this became certain and that if the budget became certain, if we knew we could get this amount, if we knew this, this, and that, then we think we could do this. That’s what we’d like to aim for. And we understand it may take us some time before that certainty comes to light, if ever. And so we also have different scenarios to adjust to. So, in practical terms, Melissa, this is scenario planning. Scenario planning is very different than, This is the way, and by God, I’m going to attach myself to that boat and I’m not letting go. That’s how the Titanic happened. Scenario planning is, We think this is what can happen, but we take into account that uncertainty is actually certain. There is certain to be uncertainty. So, can you find the certainty in the uncertainty?

MELISSA: It’s really interesting that you say that because in my mind, I’ve gone to the place where I’m like, “There was this chaotic event. So, we allowed that to happen. But from now on, everything is going to be sure and everything’s going to be certain.” And now, I don’t know that, but I feel like my brain has gone to that place where I’m like, “Okay, okay. Now, everything’s going to be good for the rest of the year.” And with that mindset, I’m setting myself up for this spin again if something happens that we were not planning. Hopefully, there will not be any other mass layoffs, but there might be other changes or reorgs. I mean, reorganizations of different job units, reorganizations of teams, people will be moved to other teams. How can I make sure that I’m planning with potential change in mind?

MURIEL WILKINS: That’s right. I mean, it’s interesting to me because you said, “I’m automatically going to like, ‘Okay, this chaos happened. It can’t happen again. Everything’s going to be good from now on’.” I’m like, okay, so what does that do for you?

MELISSA: Makes me feel safe for now. It makes me feel safe for now.

MURIEL WILKINS: Okay, it makes you feel safe. I’m not making fun of you. I mean, do what you got to do, but that might work for a little bit.

MELISSA: Yeah. And given the recent events, it’s not a strategy. Yeah.

MURIEL WILKINS: I mean, I’m being a little facetious here. And in reality, I think this is part of you redefining what makes you feel safe, right, Melissa? The things that you thought made you safe went out the window. This is an opportunity for you to sit and ask yourself like, “Well, truly what does make me feel safe?” And so I’m asking.

MELISSA: What makes me feel safe is financial stability, is one of the biggest things. And with a company laying off people, my job is threatened. So, that’s the biggest thing for me. Not being able to care for others financially is a huge, huge burden. One of the elements and first thoughts that came to mind when I started seeing the layoffs happen, I thought of the fact that if I lose my job, it will not only impact me and my current household, but it will impact other family members that I care of in a negative way. But again, I know that I’ve been working towards financial stability for years and it will not impact us immediately. So it’s like something… It’s that fear that I go to, but it’s actually not real. It’s not real in the day to day. I know. As I’m saying it, I’m like, Okay, come on, Melissa – i’s not going to impact you in six months, in a year, but you’re using that as fear that you want to hold onto for now. So, maybe I don’t have any real fears.

MURIEL WILKINS: She says, “Maybe I don’t have any real fears.” We all have real fears, Melissa. Well, real? I don’t know. We all have fears. Whether they’re real or not, I don’t know. I mean, here’s the thing. I think you’re doing the should-could thing personally. You have this sense of financial responsibility and you say, “I should be responsible, financially responsible for supporting them,” and you haven’t played out, “What happens if I can’t do it at the level that I’m doing it now or at the level that I would like to?” Which goes back to just like we played it out for what happens internally at a company. Well, then if that happens, what could you do? You can only do what you can do. That doesn’t mean that it takes away your value of supporting the community. And I’m not downplaying this. This is a very real situation. I get it. We want to be financially stable, okay? But the question becomes, if you can’t provide for yourself in the way that you do now, then what do you do?

MELISSA: Yeah. Probably move out of the area that I currently live in that is extremely expensive. But yes, I hear you on the… Yeah.

MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah. You may not like it, but you do. So, I’m going to offer a different definition of safety for you, that the safety doesn’t necessarily lie in everything falling in place in the way that we would like it to. The safety lies in the belief that no matter how things fall in place, even if it’s in ways that we don’t like it, or even if it’s ways that we don’t expect, we’ll be able to deal with it.

MELISSA: When you say it, it seems like I should have thought about it. It’s what I should be thinking.

MURIEL WILKINS: That’s a lot of “shoulds,” Melissa.

MELISSA: Yes, that’s a lot of “shoulds.” Okay, I could have been thinking about this.

MURIEL WILKINS: You could have, but you didn’t. But then here you are, and now you are.

MELISSA: Now I’m thinking about it this way.

MURIEL WILKINS: Now you can. Now you can. Now you can. You couldn’t before. Why? Because maybe it was something that never came on the horizon. There’s no way you should do something if it’s never come on your horizon, but now you can. So, now it’s a choice. Can I think about it this way or not?

MELISSA: Yeah. I really like that framing. I like the way you framed that.

MURIEL WILKINS: So, if you used that sense of, I can think about safety even in my organization from the standpoint of no matter what happens, which is basically uncertainty. In spite of the uncertainty, I/we will be able to deal with it, how does that help you adjust to when things are out of your control? Which was the original question that you asked.

MELISSA: I think first of all, it helps me name and be more comfortable with the fact that there are a lot of things that are out of our control. I know it intellectually. My head, my brain tells me that there are a lot of things that are out of our control, but my heart needs to believe that it’s okay that there are things that are out of our control. I think for me, that’s the first thing that will change and needs to change for me as I navigate adjusting to this new normal and the new normal that will come after the next change. Because as we said, we know that there is a lot of this uncertainty and change will come. I think for me, because I’m a planner, the second thing that comes to mind is I will need to figure out how to plan for times like this. And you shared the useful way of thinking about this as scenario planning, thinking about this as creating a range of different options. And that helps me as a planner to be like, Okay, you’re planning for something, but you’re not planning for certainty, which a lot of our plans are based on. You’re planning for uncertainty. And I need to go buy books and read more about this because I think there’s a lot of skill that can be developed here. But first of all, it starts with my head and my heart, and actually my gut telling me, “Be more comfortable with the concept of the “could,” accepting that there’s a lot that is out of our control, and accepting that uncertainty is part of our business now.”

MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah. I think uncertainty is part of your business, not just now, but it has been. It’s just that the uncertainty in the past is falling in line with what you wanted so it didn’t feel uncertain. I mean, this is the leadership skill of dealing with ambiguity if we want to put the fancy leadership-y terms on it. What does it mean? It means being comfortable with uncertainty. It doesn’t mean that you’ve got to throw your hands up in the air and panic and say, “Oh, well, I guess it means I can’t do anything.” No, it’s an and. I accept that there’s going to be some uncertainty and I’m going to operate in a way that we can still move forward. It’s the both, which can feel very contradictory, but they’re not contradictory. They play off of each other, but accepting both as fact. Is uncertainty a fact? Yes, it is. Yes, it is. We hate to face it. Believe me.

MELISSA: I was like, “Uncertainty’s a fact.” I can see those words written on the wall.

MURIEL WILKINS: But guess what? I mean, you work in tech, right?

MELISSA: Yeah. Yep.

MURIEL WILKINS: Technology, complete innovation is birthed out of uncertainty.

MELISSA: Yep. That is true.

MURIEL WILKINS: Breaking down beliefs of what we think should happen, and then here comes some new technical innovation. I’m old enough to be able to say, my goodness, if you had told me 40 years ago, 50 years ago that I wouldn’t be talking on a landline phone, I would’ve been like, “What? That’s certain. I will be talking on a phone with a little spiral wire that’s connected to a wall for the rest of my days.” And then what happens? So, uncertainty is always around us. We just don’t see it as that as long as it fits with what we think should happen, okay? So I think what you’re saying around getting comfortable with it, accepting it, you already are comfortable with it. You just need to be comfortable with it in other aspects when it’s not aligned with what you want, okay?

MELISSA: And I think that’s the part I have to underline, it’s when it’s not aligned with what I want or what I thought about.

MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah, what you thought about.

MELISSA: Yes. There’s planning for uncertainty where you’re like, Okay, this might happen. We might have people leave the organization and new people come in. We plan for that. So, it’s that element. And then it becomes something that I have accepted and something that I plan with and know, and I don’t necessarily like it, but it’s okay. But now, maybe I’m adding to my list of… Not maybe. Now, I need to add to my list of uncertain things that I accept. And I might not know them now or know the things that I need to add to my list, but as things happen, I need to be agile enough and self-aware that the tension I’m feeling is because they’re not on my accepted uncertainty list.

MURIEL WILKINS: That’s right. That’s right. I love that, you’re accepted uncertainties. And we’re talking here about, okay, plan for the uncertainties. You can also only do that to a certain extent. You’re not going to be able to do it to the zillionth degree and have some… I don’t want a year from now, you’re like, I have a spreadsheet that is a gazillion lines and I have planned out every single scenario. We don’t want that either, okay?

MELISSA: How’d you know that was the natural place I was going through?

MURIEL WILKINS: It’s to a certain point. And then, you hold it loosely. Why? Because something else can happen. If you hold onto the plan so tightly, you are not going to be able to adapt, adjust, as you said, be agile when circumstances change because you’re going to be holding onto the plan so tightly, even though the tide is pulling you in a different direction, you refuse to go because you’re holding onto the plan, okay? So, you make a plan and then you hold onto it loosely. What does that mean, to hold onto it loosely?

MELISSA: First of all, I want to appreciate the fact that you said hold onto the plan loosely and not let go. Let go is something that every time people say it, I feel pain in my stomach because I’m like…

MURIEL WILKINS: So, Melisa, are you telling me you don’t like the movie Frozen? “Let It Go”?

MELISSA: No, I don’t let it go. No, no, not a song I want to sing.

MURIEL WILKINS: Okay, okay, okay, okay.

MELISSA: Not a song I believe in. I have a physical reaction to that because it’s not something that aligns with how I live my life, but I can get used to holding onto a plan loosely because in my life, I’ve learned through different situations and things that did not happen as I expected. And I guess what I did from that or learned from that is to seek security in every other way. And now, I have to go back and remember how we held onto plans loosely at that point and still held commitments where we could, again, thinking about the could, but also let go when things were out of our control because we could not do them at that time for different circumstances. So, I really value the holding on loosely.

MURIEL WILKINS: So far in this coaching with Melissa, we’ve really dug deep into what she can and can’t do, what she has control over. Now that we’ve addressed a bit of how to adapt her mindset to be more flexible, to hold things more loosely, we can think about how to really implement this and how she can impact her team. When I coach, it’s important that my client become aware of their own behavior first, but we don’t want to just stop at self-awareness. We also want to walk away with an action plan and specific steps they can take. Let’s jump back in as I ask Melissa about how she might put some of this into practice with her team.

MELISSA: I think the biggest thing is having a constant mental note to revisit our plans based on where we are in three months, in six months in shorter increments, to not only enable myself to ask what has been added or what is coming up for me on my list of accepted uncertainty, but also signal to my team that I’m not expecting them to burn through and do the “should” because I’m holding myself to that standard of should, but that we’re having an open dialogue and a conversation around the “could” given whatever climate we find ourselves in. So, I think for me, at work, adaptive planning is going to be very key this year, and it will be something that I will need to do for myself to get in the right mind space, but also in partnership for my team and with my team.

MURIEL WILKINS: Amazing. And with your team, you have to meet them where they are. And I think this word that you’ve brought up multiple times around safety, defining it within a place of, for lack of a better word, I hate using this word, but empowerment. What can you do that’s in your control that makes you feel safe at this moment? What can we do as a team in this moment, in this meeting that in spite of all the chaos going on around us makes us feel as safe as we can feel? A large part of when people start feeling unsafe in the workplace is when they start losing a feeling of agency. And so one of the roles you can play as a manager is restoring a sense of agency within the context that they’re in. I mean, that’s the issue. The context is not vibing with what you all want and desire. And for a long time, it did. It vibed. Now, it’s not.

MELISSA: I really like the naming of agency being something that the team is currently struggling with. If we think about, we’re holding onto a plan loosely, we do have agency in that model. It’s just that we might not know, clearly. We might not be able to define agency to the nth degree as we’ve had to or we’ve been able to in the past, but we do have some control of the work that we do. But I really like that, having that conversation, an ongoing conversation as a team as to what can we do? Where do we have that sense of agency or where are we lacking it at the moment? I think the conversation will happen more from the lack side, but they’re reminding ourselves of…

MURIEL WILKINS: What do we have, right?

MELISSA: Mm-hmm.

MURIEL WILKINS: And again, with acknowledging what’s happened because in a sense, not even in a sense. I mean, what you all are going through and what you are going through, at least from what I’m experiencing with you, you’re grieving what was. It is a grieving process. And it’s a grieving of the way the company was, it’s a grieving of the way you thought things would be. And so you have to allow yourself to also go through that process. So as a manager, it’s also being able to hold that space for your people, but helping lead them through it as well. But you can’t do that unless you go through it as well, okay?

MELISSA: Yeah. That’s a very good point.

MURIEL WILKINS: It’s really interesting to me because there’s something that’s coming up for me as we’re talking, which is Jim Collins in Good to Great, the classic book, where he brings out the whole theme of good leaders operate with realistic optimism. And I think that’s what we’re talking about here. It’s not about all of a sudden becoming this pessimist where you’re like, Nothing good is going to happen and everything is uncertain, damn it. But it’s also not being what you said, which is, “Okay, the chaos has happened. I’m just going to…”

MELISSA: Move on.

MURIEL WILKINS: … move on. Can’t happen again.” I remember somebody very wise once told me… Because I think Melissa, we’re a little similar in our optimism. Somebody very wise once told me there’s a very thin line between optimism and denial.

MELISSA: Ooh. Yeah.

MURIEL WILKINS: And I of course said, “That’s such a pessimist thing to say.”

MELISSA: I don’t understand what they meant, but yeah.

MURIEL WILKINS: I don’t understand. I mean, so what does that mean to you?

MELISSA: I think for me, I’ve been in denial about the fact that there is more change that will come. That’s the huge, huge, huge… As I say, it scares me, but there will need to be more change. If you think about, I live in an area where earthquakes are a thing or could be a thing. But I’m learning that after a major earthquake, there are aftershocks, but I’ve been in denial about the aftershocks.

MURIEL WILKINS: And so, if we were to… Keeping with the theme of 12 months from now. If 12 months from now we had a check-in and you say, “Oh my gosh, Muriel, I went from being an optimist to being a realistic optimist,” what would be the difference for you? What would the way that you behave or operate or act, how different would it look?

MELISSA: The biggest thing is the holding on loosely to commitments and plans. That would be the biggest one. I would be able to say we adjusted our plans and we were okay with it. It wasn’t something that we did through painful pain and suffering, but it was something that we were prepared for and something that we did with grace and everything still turned out well. The second thing will be, I will have more peace with how things turn out, even if they’re different, and they will be different from what I thought they’ll be starting this year. I mean, this… Yeah, it’s already different. So I guess it’s finding the peace with the fact that it is different, and that’s okay.

MURIEL WILKINS: And that’s okay.

MELISSA: Yeah.

MURIEL WILKINS: I think this is really about being okay, not necessarily being okay with what happened. It’s being okay with the fact that you will be okay. Okay, we’ve covered a lot. I’d love to hear from you where you are now versus where you were when we started this conversation.

MELISSA: I think for me, the biggest learning or the biggest thoughts that I have now that I did not have coming into this was it’s okay that I feel the way I’m feeling. That has been, through the conversation, I’m like, It has been massive change. A lot has happened in a short period of time. My sense of safety was rocked. So, it’s okay that I feel the way I’m feeling. That’s the biggest thing. And I haven’t given myself the time to think about it. So, I think coming to terms with that was the first gift, or is the first gift that I’ve been given through the conversation. The second one is around the practical framing and something that makes sense to me around the accepting uncertainty and being okay with it, knowing that at the end of the day, everything will be okay. I’ll be fine, the team will be fine, the work will be fine. I think that’s another big item for me.

MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah. Beautiful. And I can’t wait a year from now to hear what fine looks like, maybe even sooner.

MELISSA: Yeah, yeah.

MURIEL WILKINS: I’m trying to be a realistic optimist. We’re going to keep each other accountable there, MELISSA, okay?

MELISSA: I love it.

MURIEL WILKINS: Facing something like an economic downturn or mass layoffs at a company never feels good for a leader. Of course, losing your job creates a large amount of stress, but sometimes we forget about those left behind, still working at the company who now have their own sense of normalcy rocked. This conversation brought to light a lot of things to keep in mind, even in other situations of uncertainty, to remember to focus on what you can and can’t control, to not hold on too tightly to the way things were, and perhaps most importantly, remembering what drives you in all that you do and staying true to that. That’s it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders. Next time…

EPISODE 2 GUEST: We’re finding that there’s so much change constantly happening around us that we’re not sure what our motivation is. Why do we do what we do? Is it impactful? How do I keep myself motivated and keep my team motivated because of these constant changes in the environment?

MURIEL WILKINS: Want more of this episode? Join the Coaching Real Leaders community, where I host live discussions to unpack the coaching sessions you hear on this show. Become a member at coachingrealleaderscommunity.com. You can also find more from me on LinkedIn at Muriel Wilkins. Thanks to my producer, Mary Dooe, sound editor, Nick Crnko, music composer, Brian Campbell, my assistant, Emily Sopha, and the entire team at HBR. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations and to you, our listeners who share in their journeys. If you are dealing with a leadership challenge, I’d love to hear from you and possibly have you on the show. Apply at coachingrealleaders.com. And of course, if you love the show and learn from it, pay it forward. Share it with your friends, subscribe and leave a review on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. From HBR Presents, I’m Muriel Wilkins. Until next time, be well.