Should I Change My Last Name?

AMY BERNSTEIN: You’re listening to Women at Work from Harvard Business Review. I’m Amy Bernstein.

AMY GALLO: I’m Amy Gallo. Something our former co-host, Nicole Torres, told us last year when we were talking about personal branding inspired this episode.

NICOLE TORRES: Well, as soon as you said personal branding, I thought of something very different and that might just be, like, time in my life and what my closest friends are talking about, which is women change their names and that affects your personal brand, and how do you handle that decision? I’m having a lot of these conversations now with friends who are getting wed and some are changing their names, some are not, and we always have very interesting discussions about why or why not and how that affects their professional lives. So, that is also a big part of branding that women have to consider.

AMY GALLO: If you’re interested in getting married in the first place. Current numbers about what percentage of women are making which decisions about their maiden names are sort of hard to come by, but Pew Research Center just published new findings the day before we’re recording this about trends in the US based on a survey they did earlier this year. Amy B, what did they find?

AMY BERNSTEIN: Well, what they found really surprised me. I’m just looking at the report now, but what Pew found is that most women in opposite sex marriages, and by most, 79%, that’s a lot, four-fifths basically, say they took their spouse’s last name when they got married. All right, guess how many kept their own name, kept their last name?

AMY GALLO: Well, is it the opposite of 79%, 21% or whatever?

AMY BERNSTEIN: Nope. Nope. That would be logical, but inaccurate. Another 14% kept their last name and 5% hyphenated both their name and their spouse’s name. So, I started wondering about the Sarah Green Carmichaels of the world. So, our former co-host, Sarah Green Carmichael, kept her maiden name and then her husband’s name without a hyphen, and that is just 1%.

AMY GALLO: Interesting.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Of the respondents.

AMY GALLO: So, you said it was 79% of women in opposite sex marriages who changed their name? What about women in same-sex marriages?

AMY BERNSTEIN: Well, the Pew Center says they didn’t get enough of a sample size to find that out, so we don’t know.

AMY GALLO: Increase your sample size because I would like to know.

AMY BERNSTEIN: One more finding that I’d love to share is that among women who have never been married, a mere 33% say they take their husband’s last name.

AMY GALLO: Oh, really?

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah. And then the other finding that I’m finding so interesting is that the number of those who are not yet married saying they’ll keep their own name, they keep their last name, 23%. Remember, it was 14% of people who are married.

AMY GALLO: Yeah. Interesting.

AMY BERNSTEIN: But a full quarter of respondents said that they’re not even sure yet.

AMY GALLO: Right. Was there anything in that study about whether career aspirations affect, or anything about their career affects that decision?

AMY BERNSTEIN: Well, this is me scanning the article, not seeing anything about career. Hang on. Closest we get is that far more women with some college or less took their spouses names, 83%, than did women with a postgraduate degree. That was just 68%.

AMY GALLO: Is there anything about what influences their decision?

AMY BERNSTEIN: No. It’s really a readout of the numbers.

AMY GALLO: The numbers, yeah.

AMY BERNSTEIN: There isn’t that kind of analysis.

AMY GALLO: Yep. It’d be interesting to know what factors for that 79% or even the 14% or those even who hyphenate, what influenced that decision.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yep. I would love to know more. I think we’re going to get into that though, aren’t we?

AMY GALLO: Yeah.

AMY BERNSTEIN: So, Amy G, when you and Damien got engaged, did you consider giving up Gallo and taking his last name, which I just learned, I’ve known you for years. I just learned his last name.

AMY GALLO: Yeah, his last name is Vania and my name is Amy. That’s a long A with a long A, so it wasn’t going to sound pretty, Amy Vania, but I have to be honest, that never even crossed. It was just not an issue. I have always been Amy Gallo. It’s almost one word. The idea of changing that seemed so foreign to me.

AMY BERNSTEIN: And you are not Amy V.

AMY GALLO: I’m not Amy V, I’m Amy G.

AMY BERNSTEIN: You are.

AMY GALLO: I’ll be honest. I had very strong feelings about taking a man’s name. That just didn’t sit well with me. It just felt, and I reasoned, of course, my current name is also a man’s name, my father’s name, and at one point, I even considered my parents are divorced, my mom kept my dad’s name, so she and I have the same last name, and at one point, I considered taking her maiden name as my last name to give it the matrilineal line, but then I was like, well, that’s just my grandfather’s name. There’s no way around that it’s some man’s name, and so I decided I’ve been Amy Gallo for a really long time. I can’t imagine being anyone else.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Right. And it is your name.

AMY GALLO: Yeah.

AMY BERNSTEIN: So, you got engaged. How far along were you in your career?

AMY GALLO: I’d been working like 12 years at that point. So, just over a decade.

AMY BERNSTEIN: So, how did that factor in? That’s already a substantial amount of time in.

AMY GALLO: Yeah, and I’d like to say it was a big factor, but I don’t think I realized then the consequences of changing my name, what the potential consequences and risks could be to my career, that I had invested 12 years of my life into building a reputation, making connections, establishing myself as Amy Gallo. And I don’t think I thought about the costs of switching, partly because it wasn’t a real consideration to change, but for professional reasons, I’m really glad I didn’t. I think about how much my current career is influenced by those first 12 years and it’s a lot. I have mentors, I have people who knew me in previous jobs. I have things I wrote under my name from that time. To have, all of a sudden, a different name, just I wouldn’t have been comfortable with that cost.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah. It’s disruptive to say the least, right?

AMY GALLO: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. What about you Amy B? Did you and Nan talk about changing your names when you got married?

AMY BERNSTEIN: No, but same-sex couples didn’t really do that back then and anyway, it was never even a consideration for us.

AMY GALLO: Why wasn’t it a consideration?

AMY BERNSTEIN: Well, for one thing, we were both deep into our careers. We both had our professional identities. I was 35 when we got together and Nan was 40, but same-sex couples didn’t take each other’s names. That was not yet part of the then brand new tradition of getting married. A brand new tradition, that’s an oxymoron, but first marriage wasn’t available to us and then when it was, yeah, there’s no way that I, then in my forties, would’ve changed my name.

AMY GALLO: Yeah, that is late in the game.

AMY BERNSTEIN: It’s way too late in the game for me and for Nanette as well. We talked about getting matching motorcycles and stuff like that, but nothing about our names.

AMY GALLO: It’s a perfect way to cement the bond. I do know people who’ve not hyphenated or even kept, like Sarah Green Carmichael kept their, I keep calling it original name, their maiden name. I don’t even know what to call. Maiden name also sounds terrible.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Well, I kept saying her own name as if that’s a distinguishing factor. Anyway, yeah.

AMY GALLO: The name they had at the time of marriage and then added, but I know people who actually created and I know a couple of same-sex couples who created a new name based on their last name. One of my favorite was Perlmine and Volz, and they changed their last name to Perlz, P-E-R-L-Z. I was like, that is a cool name.

AMY BERNSTEIN: That’s a cool name, but that’s like three times the disruption, but you know what? Good for them and how brave.

AMY GALLO: Yeah. I also know another couple, opposite sex couple where the husband really wanted to raise the kids with his faith and not his wife’s faith, and she said, that’s fine, but in that case, they’ll have my last name, and that was the trade they were willing to make.

AMY BERNSTEIN: So, it was a negotiation.

AMY GALLO: Yeah.

AMY BERNSTEIN: So interesting.

AMY GALLO: It’s funny that their kids are teenagers now and I asked them recently, the adults, how they felt about the name for faith trade and they’re like, it’s worked out really well.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Amy G, you and I have been talking about ancient history, but sitting with us today is none other than Hannah Bates, our associate producer and friend, who is about to get married, right? When are you getting married?

HANNAH BATES: Yes. June 15th, 2024. It’s also our dog’s birthday. She will be in the wedding.

AMY GALLO: Nice.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yes.

AMY GALLO: It’s a must. Our dog was in our wedding.

AMY BERNSTEIN: I would actually consider having a wedding if I could have my dogs in it.

AMY GALLO: You just get remarried every time you get a new dog.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Oh my gosh. Yeah. So, Hannah, Nicole brought up a whole question of personal brand when you’re thinking about a name change and I wonder how personal brand, your career, just the breadcrumb trail you’ve left of Hannah Bates, how does that all factor into your decision?

HANNAH BATES: So many thoughts and feelings, but I think it’s better if you hear all of those thoughts and feelings in the context of this conversation I had with three other women who’ve either gone through or are currently going through this same decision-making process.

TANIYA UPPAL: My name is Taniya Uppal, which used to be Taniya Gupta.

SAYAKA HARA: My name is Sayaka Hara, but it used to be Sayaka Kawano.

ALEX SHORE: And my name is Alex Shore and it’s staying Alex Shore.

HANNAH BATES: Well, Alex, you and I know each other because we work together and you’re leaving soon and I was thinking last night, I was like, this is the first full-blown conversation I’ve ever had with Alex and now I’m sad that I won’t get to do that anymore.

ALEX SHORE: I know.

HANNAH BATES: But that’s how we know each other, and then you brought Sayaka to us.

ALEX SHORE: Yes. So, me and Sayaka, when we were 21, babies, we started working together at… Well, she still works for the company at my old job and we’ve been friends ever since. So, like six, seven years.

HANNAH BATES: Oh, that’s nice. And Taniya, you’re no stranger to Women at Work.

TANIYA UPPAL: Yes.

HANNAH BATES: This is your third time?

TANIYA UPPAL: This is my third podcast. Very excited to be here as always.

HANNAH BATES: Oh, love it. All right. Well, I’ve brought you all here today to talk about changing your last name or not, and that was something that I think pretty immediately, even before we got engaged, I knew I was going to keep my last name just because I feel very attached to it. It’s Bates, it’s that one syllable, it punctuates, I feel like, my name and I don’t know. I really like it, and also my dad passed away and that’s his last name so it keeps me connected to him. Professionally, I did take my career into account when making this decision also. I’m a musician, so that is a consideration. I do have music goals that maybe someday, I just want everything to be under Hannah Bates, but then also, at this job, my name is in all of the credits of the podcasts and if I want to remain in podcasting, I feel like, I don’t know, it’s just more convenient to have my last name stay the same. There’s no confusion there like who’s Hannah Bates versus Hannah Mortimer? I don’t need to worry about connecting the two of them. So that’s how I came to the decision, but for all of you, how did that decision come up for you and what were you thinking about? Taniya, why don’t you start?

TANIYA UPPAL: So, for the longest time, I didn’t even think about it. The decision came up the day we were sitting on our computers trying to register our marriage, and this was all during COVID so everything was online, and then I saw the big question pop up, last name now, last name after marriage. I was like, oh my God, this is where I have to decide.

HANNAH BATES: Oh no.

TANIYA UPPAL: Work was a very, very big contributor to that decision because I had that feeling that everything I’ve done in my life, I have been known by that person, and if I become this new person, then who am I really going to be, and I was expecting people to see me differently. I was expecting I walk out of a washer or a car cleaning facility and I’m a new person. I was expecting that.

HANNAH BATES: So, how did you expect people would treat you differently?

TANIYA UPPAL: So, I think it was more to do with how my family is and how my husband’s family is because I think a family’s associated by their last names primarily. My family is a little more impulsive, a little more traditional definition of fun, just getting out of bed and planning this is what they want to do, and my husband’s family, they plan more. So, I was just like, am I going to lose myself? Am I going to just because I am part of a new family now, will I not be part of my old family in those traits, in those characteristics? So, I think that was who I was worried I would become, not like I don’t like it. It’s just it wasn’t me. I think that was what really concerned me about making the change.

HANNAH BATES: So, it was more about how your families would look at you differently?

TANIYA UPPAL: A mix of that and also how I would look at myself, I think. So, if I look at myself differently, if my families treat me a little bit differently, then why wouldn’t my coworkers treat me differently? That’s where I think I went into that chain of thought and it’s like they don’t know who I am anymore. I think I was just overthinking, to be honest, at that point.

HANNAH BATES: I’ve read a bunch of research and preparation for this episode and people have thought and overthought this for their jobs, I feel like. So, I feel like you definitely weren’t overthinking it and for sure, a valid consideration. Will people treat me differently?

TANIYA UPPAL: Yeah. I don’t know if I’m allowed to jump to the part now, but I really do think nothing changed. I still am the same person I was. I still go by my first name majorly everywhere like work, everybody knows me by Taniya. Nobody really uses my last name before or now unless they’re introducing me for the first time.

HANNAH BATES: Well, I guess when you’re meeting someone new, they, from that point on, are only and ever will know you as Taniya Uppal.

TANIYA UPPAL: Yeah, I think that has sunk in, but that was actually one of the reasons why I did change because I was talking to my husband about, it’s like I’ve spent, what, four years in the industry. Everybody knows me by this name and what happens, and he just looked at me, and of course, men don’t think about this so much, I think. But he just logically said, you’ve spent four years in the industry and you have another 30 to go, and since then, I’ve just had that perspective open up to me, and sure, it hurts sometimes that people don’t know my old name, but they know me and I’m still the same me and nobody looks at me differently, at least I think nobody looks at me differently.

HANNAH BATES: Sayaka, what about you? What went into your decision to change your last name?

SAYAKA HARA: So, similar to Taniya, I never even thought about it real deeply until we were at the point of signing papers. I’m also Japanese, it’s really common in Japan to change your last name and I like the idea of having a family unit, but I think also, the choice of changing my last name was maybe a bit of an illusion because until prepping for this podcast, I didn’t know that Japan had strict laws about name changes. They require you to have one of the same last name. It could be yours or your partner’s last name, but everyone has to have the same last name.

HANNAH BATES: Interesting.

SAYAKA HARA: Yeah, and it’s really interesting too because I talked to my mom about this a little bit too. You also don’t get marriage papers in Japan. The way that you prove your marriage is by family registry. So, you can just imagine a document, there’s like your last name is at the top and it lists your spouse, your kids, and that’s kind of how you handle everything. So, you can trace your ancestry that way too.

HANNAH BATES: Interesting.

SAYAKA HARA: And so, I think my mom and my grandma had more of an emotional time when I legally got married because you have to do documentation to kind of remove yourself from your family document.

HANNAH BATES: Oh my gosh, that sounds so sad.

SAYAKA HARA: To start a new family, essentially, with your partner. So, that was really interesting. I feel like I was just signing papers. We’ve been dating for a long time. I think it was no surprise that I was getting married, but I think when my mom was getting choked up, I was like, oh no, what did I do?

HANNAH BATES: Yeah, that’s wild that it’s literally, you’re legally removing yourself almost from your own family.

SAYAKA HARA: Yeah.

HANNAH BATES: Did you know that before you-

SAYAKA HARA: Yeah, kind of, and here, it’s like social security is your way to identify, but I feel like whenever you do anything, you have to have your family registry to prove your identity of sorts, and this is a little morbid, but when you pass away and you have a gravestone, it’s usually a family gravestone that you get buried into. It’s not your individual ones. It’s very much tied to the idea of family and the idea of having a same last name. And I am, because of this podcast, I’m like, oh my god, I never thought so much into it, but I guess that being said, even though things did catch me by surprise, I think, I don’t regret changing it even though right now, I feel like I’m in the weird in-between, I haven’t fully transitioned into my new name. I feel like even when I was signing in downstairs, I probably signed with my old name. So I feel like I have a dual identity still.

ALEX SHORE: Sayaka, remember how people in the office found out that you changed your last name?

SAYAKA HARA: Yes. So, I’m legally married. My wedding’s next year though. As soon as my name changed legally, I reported it to HR so that for tax reasons, pay stubs, all of that, but the HR team was like, your email that has first and last name, you have to go through IT if you want to change it. So, I’m like, you know what? I’m just not even going to deal with changing my name publicly or internally within our company until maybe my wedding rolls around. And then one day over the summer, I don’t know what triggered it, but my Zoom, Slack, everything that we use in our work had my new last name on it except for my email. I woke up to a lot of messages from people being like, what happened? When did this happen, and all of that. I’m like, I have no idea. I’m legally married-

HANNAH BATES: So sneaky.

SAYAKA HARA: I know. Hara is on, my new last name, is on some stuff, but things like email is still my old last name just because we work with some people externally and I have contract and things like that where I don’t want things to get lost in the mix kind of. So, I feel like a spy sometimes because people can’t find me.

HANNAH BATES: That’s hilarious. And Alex, what about you?

ALEX SHORE: Yeah. So, I guess I have always thought kind of like you, Hannah, that I wanted to keep my name because it’s so short and to the point. My full name is Alexandra Shore, but everyone calls me Alex. No one calls me Alexandra, and I just love the way Alex Shore sounds.

HANNAH BATES: It rolls off the tongue ­– Alex Shore.

ALEX SHORE: It does, and even in work settings, this is kind of funny and embarrassing, people will call me A Sho and things like that. So, it’s like a nickname, I feel like, I’ve almost acquired at school or work and I have liked that, and so my fiance’s last name is Jungschaffer, which is very long and it’s also German, and every time we go somewhere and he has to spell out his first name, Johannes, and his last name, Jungschaffer, it takes probably 10 minutes to go back and forth spelling out the full name.

HANNAH BATES: It’s a lot of letters.

ALEX SHORE: It’s a lot of letters, and then people will ask, oh, is that a German name? What does it mean, and then we have to explain it means young, hard worker, things like that.

HANNAH BATES: That’s cool.

ALEX SHORE: And so, it is cool, but when I thought about changing my last name, if I was changing it to Alexandra Jungschaffer, I feel like I would be taking on some of that identity and some of those questions that go with it, and it’s not part of my heritage, so I just thought I’m just going to keep it ALEX SHORE, simple. I like it, it works in all situations.

HANNAH BATES: I like Alex Shore. I’m a fan of you keeping it for what it’s worth.

ALEX SHORE: Thank you.

HANNAH BATES: Taniya, I have a question for you specifically. On your LinkedIn, it says “formerly Gupta.”

TANIYA UPPAL: Yep.

HANNAH BATES: Does it still say that?

TANIYA UPPAL: You got it right. Oh my God. It does, yeah. I think I use formerly for about a year and LinkedIn still says that because my professional connections from before know me as Gupta. So, I feel like I’m going to keep that for a little bit, but it doesn’t really hurt anybody, but even at my current place of work, I changed my email signatures, everything said formerly for about a year, and then by then, I knew nobody really called me with my last name anymore. So I was like, okay, I think this is time.

HANNAH BATES: Yeah, so you feel like a year was a good enough.

TANIYA UPPAL: Yeah, but I also did not change my name immediately after getting married. So, I took about a year and a half to start making the change, and then we, like in Sayaka’s case, we actually had the wedding a little bit after our legal registration in the US. So, I feel like after the wedding, I got more comfortable in my skin even though when I got my new passport, I was like, who is this person? That was a month before the wedding. And I was freaking out just looking at it. I was like, this is not me, and then something just changed in me after the wedding. It just felt like, oh, you know what? This is my family now, and I think that feeling that became so beautiful, that I just became more accepting and the immense amount of work that came with the logistics of it just became easier because I was like, end of the day, okay, we’re a family and that made the difference to me.

HANNAH BATES: That’s really nice. So, you feel like you really identify with Taniya Uppal?

TANIYA UPPAL: Yeah.

HANNAH BATES: With Tanya Uppal now.

TANIYA UPPAL: That’s the hardest part, getting people to say the names. I think I do, but I think it’s more about maybe it’s… I think I don’t know, but I think I just focus on Taniya more so and then the rest is, I think it’s coming to me now. I don’t speak my old name so much anymore. It does happens still like Sayaka, you said. I think sometimes I just sign the old name and I don’t realize it.

SAYAKA HARA: Yeah, it’s reassuring to hear you say that because my wedding’s coming up and I’m just manifesting it for myself. I feel like I’m in that weird in-between stage, but I feel like once we have the wedding and it’s official and it’s-

TANIYA UPPAL: It’s a beautiful feeling, I’m sure you’ll get-

SAYAKA HARA: I know, I’m so excited.

HANNAH BATES: I feel like right now, you’re both and neither.

SAYAKA HARA: Exactly. I’m just floating till the wedding.

HANNAH BATES: So, before we all came into the studio today, we all read this article by Dorie Clark called “How to Change Your Name and Keep Your Professional Identity,” and in it, she goes through some advice for doing so like announcing the change. So, you should send an email blast to your colleagues letting them know that your last name just changed. She also talks about taking an online inventory of where your maiden name shows up. So, that could be your social media accounts or your email accounts, and she recommends updating all of those at the same time so you don’t confuse people. So, did any of you do anything that she recommended you do? Taniya?

TANIYA UPPAL: So, I actually made a spreadsheet.

HANNAH BATES: Oh, okay.

TANIYA UPPAL: I made a list of categories and places where I needed to change my name. So, it started with social security, banking, HR, previous HRs. I had a list which is still open to date because there are some things that I still haven’t changed like airlines, rental cars, those kind of things. So, I did do that and when I was changing it at work, I gave my managers a heads-up like, hey, if you see this name, it’s still me. So, they knew it and then when we had the next team meeting, the office meeting, I just casually announced, hey, guys, if you see this name, it’s me and so on, and people, I think everybody knew by then that I was married. So, it wasn’t really a shocker like Sayaka, you had, like what happened to you, but I did let everybody know, and then I had forwarding set up by IT, and what else did I do? I think I had a signature. In my signature, I had a little statement saying that this is my new email. Please make sure you update address book and stuff like that.

SAYAKA HARA: I think the advice from the article about really announcing it yourself that your name changed is probably one that I’m going to take account into soon because I feel like it causes a lot of mess and confusion. Sayaka isn’t really a common name, but people still message me being like, I can’t find you in our system. Where did you go? So, that’s the one that I would definitely take away from that article.

HANNAH BATES: I remember when my mom changed her last name for the second time 10 years ago, she said that for a while, it was kind of nice that people couldn’t find her because she’s like, check out for a little bit, but then after a while, she was like, okay, this is concerning, but I’m curious, Alex, you’re not changing your last name, but people might notice that you’re not changing your last name. Is there anything you’re going to do? Are you going to announce, by the way, I’m staying Alex Shore or anything like that?

ALEX SHORE: Honestly, when I was reading the article, I was happy because I’m like, wow, I don’t really have to do any of this, but to the point of announcing it, I’m starting a new job and I’m taking time off for my wedding, and so I guess when I start my new job, I’ll just tell them, hey, just so you know, I am getting married this month at the end of the month and I’m not changing my last name. I probably will announce it at least to the core people on my team that are new just so they know that nothing will change, but there’s no sense in doing a wider announcement to people.

SAYAKA HARA: Yeah, I literally thought of you because I feel like starting a new job would be a clean way to start your new email, new everything. So, I envy you in that sense.

HANNAH BATES: But I do wonder if people, and I don’t know if this actually, if this would impact you in any real way, but if people are just going to assume that Shore is your husband’s last name. That’s not your maiden name.

SAYAKA HARA: That’s interesting.

HANNAH BATES: I don’t really know what that means, but just-

ALEX SHORE: Yeah.

HANNAH BATES: I had a really interesting conversation with one of my fiancé’s friends, who is married, and him and his wife have been married for two years, I think, at this point and she still has not changed her last name, but she intends to, and part of the reason she is putting it off is because she is in med school. She’s going to be a doctor, and she’s like, “for the longest time, I’ve always imagined when I become a doctor, I’m going to be doctor her last name and not doctor his last name.” She’s like, “I paid for med school, I did all the hard work. My name deserves to be attached to all of that. And if I changed my last name and became doctor his last name, then it’s almost like I’m giving him some of the credit,” and she’s like, “and he didn’t do shit. He didn’t do anything,” and it got me thinking about even my last name. I am not a doctor and I did not go to med school, nor did I pay for med school, but I still feel like I have worked hard in my career and I don’t want to give Danny any of that. That is not his, that is mine, and maybe it depends on the industry you’re in and what you do for work, but that definitely got me thinking about all of the things I attach to my name and just was interesting to think about.

TANIYA UPPAL: If I can ask, why would you feel that you’re giving him part of your life or your credits, the credits that are to your name? Why do you feel so?

HANNAH BATES: Because it’s his name, I guess, and let’s say if I changed my name to Hannah Mortimer. Hannah Bates did the work to get here, not Hannah Mortimer, and maybe that is me overthinking it a little bit, but yeah, I think that’s why.

TANIYA UPPAL: Okay, that makes sense. I was curious because I know that a couple of my other friends who did not change their name thought that way, and I guess I couldn’t fully comprehend that.

HANNAH BATES: It’s almost like I feel like it’s too late. I’m just Hannah Bates in the world now.

TANIYA UPPAL: Fair enough.

HANNAH BATES: And Hannah Bates I will stay kind of thing. So, I read a study that said almost 40% of all marriages end in divorce. Alex, have you thought about if you ever get divorced, like, well, at least I get to keep my last name because I’ve thought of that?

ALEX SHORE: Yeah, it definitely makes it easier, I guess, and I think if we get divorced, I’ll just stay the same and move on.

HANNAH BATES: It’s like a prenup with yourself.

ALEX SHORE: It is.

HANNAH BATES: If all else fails, you keep your name, your identity. I think that’s all I have. Thanks, guys.

ALEX SHORE: Great job.

HANNAH BATES: That was good. Yeah. Awesome. Thanks, everyone. After the break, Nicole joins me and the Amys to finish this episode she started.

AMY BERNSTEIN: So, Nicole, we’re here because you raised this question.

NICOLE TORRES: So, I think I need to put out there that I’m not married, nor has marriage been proposed to me, but I do think about just this idea of women changing their names pretty often, like we talked about in the last show, and I’ve been going to a lot of weddings. A lot of my friends are getting married, they’re grappling with this question. Me personally, I have never thought I would change my name because it is really tied to my identity and my professional background. I’m at a certain point in my career where I think my name matters to me, but I would change my name for a really cool last name. I changed my name to Nicole Chalamet, for example, but I think you can be quite strategic in that. That would also be maybe a professional brand decision about your name. I was looking at people who have really big, well-known professional brands, celebs who have changed their names, and Jennifer Lopez changed her name to Jennifer Affleck.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Okay. But you just called her Jennifer Lopez.

NICOLE TORRES: I know, I know, and she acknowledges that, but she legally changed her name and isn’t worried about, she’s at a certain point in her career, she’s not worried about her brand suffering, but a more interesting one maybe was Amal Alamuddin became Amal Clooney.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yes.

NICOLE TORRES: And she was a super successful lawyer, but then there was a brand component there that made her change her name.

AMY GALLO: She was probably being very strategic with that decision, and I think we can talk about it, maybe someone slightly less famous like our former co-host, Sarah Green became Sarah Green Carmichael. I remember stumbling a lot at the beginning, but now, I think of her as Sarah Green Carmichael.

AMY BERNSTEIN: She’s SGC. The name has become her and she has become the name and it works.

AMY GALLO: Yeah, I think it’s daunting on this side of it to think, I’m going to change my name. I’m going to lose all this professional collateral or even goodwill that I’ve built up or identity, but I think a lot of people do it with quite good success. With the advice like Dorie’s, you can make it work.

NICOLE TORRES: I still wouldn’t do it and you can make it work.

HANNAH BATES: Well, Nicole, I was going to say earlier to your point about personal brand and how Amal Clooney changed her last name because look who she’s married to. I’m sure that helped her in some way, but I think also, a name has a vibe. My fiance’s last name is Mortimer. Hannah Mortimer is a different vibe than Hannah Bates.

NICOLE TORRES: 100%.

HANNAH BATES: And no shade to the last name Mortimer, but it’s just not the same, and even my mom, when she was changing her, her maiden name is Modig when she got married to my dad, she said that when she changed her last name to Bates, she was like, “Bates was just such a power last name.” Her name’s Susan. “I liked Susan Bates,” and at that point, she was really getting her foot in the door into corporate America. And she liked that vibe it gave her. And also, what we heard… I think Alex Shore’s story about her fiance’s last name demonstrated this really well. Sometimes your last name carries this really cool story, like her fiance’s last name is Jungschaffer. It means young, hard worker. I have to imagine that’s part of his personal brand. So, let’s say her last name, her maiden name is Jungschaffer. If she changed her last name, she’d be giving that up. So, it’s a lot to consider.

NICOLE TORRES: It comes down to vibe. I totally 100% believe that.

AMY BERNSTEIN: But doesn’t it also come down to what you want the world to know about you? I guess that’s personal brand, but I love my last name, Bernstein. It tells you a little bit about who I am. I love that the world hears that name and says, she’s probably Jewish. That’s part of who I am and it’s not obvious to look at me. So, I do think that for some of us, the name is more than just a vibe. There’s a lot of meaning in it, right?

NICOLE TORRES: Yeah, totally. So, I think about last names. I thought about last names in my life because I’m Filipino and so I have a Spanish last name, but I look like an Asian woman, and so it will distinguish my ethnicity when people ask what my last name is and I’ll say Torres, and they’ll be like, usually, they know. They’ll be like, Filipinos have Spanish last names because of colonial history, and vibe wise, I think it sounds cool, but Nicole Chalamet also sounds very cool.

AMY BERNSTEIN: All right. I want to ask Nicole and Hannah a question. How much peer pressure do you feel about this whole question of whether or not to change your name?

HANNAH BATES: Surprisingly, not a ton. I think a lot of my friends, they’re kind of grappling with the same question right now, but a lot of them, I think, are leaning towards keeping their last names, but I do have some family members who they just assume, you’re going to be Mrs. Mortimer, and I’ll be like, “well, I’m actually keeping my last name,” and they’re a little shocked. They’re like, “well, what about your kids,” and I was like, “well, we don’t know if we’re going to have kids,” and they’re like… it doesn’t compute to them.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Does anyone counter what about your kids with what about your career?

HANNAH BATES: No.

AMY BERNSTEIN: What about you, Nicole?

NICOLE TORRES: Yeah, I think it’s almost exactly the same. I think there would be no peer pressure. It would be familial pressure and just think about your family, what it would mean having a different last name, not really any questions of how would the career that you’ve built up for yourself change? So, that’s sad and interesting.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Well, the reason I ask is I remember back in the ice age when my peers were first getting married, some of my friends took their husband’s names and some didn’t, and I remember one oddly savage conversation about a friend who did not take her husband’s last name, which was clearly viewed as a referendum on others’ decisions to take their husband’s last names, and that stuff happens because I think everyone’s a little insecure about this decision one way or the other, but I had never even thought about this as a group decision before.

AMY GALLO: Yeah. Well, I think it’s very much influenced by your peers and by your family. The other thing I think when you change your name, you are signaling I got married, which maybe not everyone you work with or who you know professionally knows. So, you’re sharing that information, and I think changing your name also does imply that you will possibly be having children and what we know about the maternal wall bias. And how we think of women who’ve had children or who are even potentially having children and the bias they face of like, are they loyal? Will they care enough about the work? Will they be able to dedicate enough time? Will they be torn? I think changing your name might invite that bias in some way. I’d be curious if there’s research about that, but do you worry about that at all, Nicole or Hannah? You’re not thinking of changing your name, but did that factor in at all?

HANNAH BATES: Honestly, I didn’t think about that, and I know Taniya and I, and Sayaka and Alex, all of us were saying we didn’t really think about any of this when we were making this decision. We’re like, we feel kind of ignorant. We hadn’t, but to your point about the bias towards the likelihood of a woman becoming a mother, I did read a little bit of research that suggested that there might actually be a positive bias towards the women who changed their last name, particularly coming from women managers because they think, if my employee who’s a woman changes her last name, that must’ve been a hard decision and so I want to promote her more.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Wow.

HANNAH BATES: Yeah.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Wow. That’s a lot of thought being given to someone’s very personal decision.

HANNAH BATES: I know. It felt like a stretch, but I was like, that is interesting that I think maybe depending on where you stand on the decision, it could go either way.

AMY GALLO: Although I do think about, was it Taniya who made the spreadsheet to change her name, right? Like I said, I really didn’t consider changing my name except for one moment when I was filing the marriage certificate, and I remember the woman was like, here’s the list of things you have to do if you’re going to change your name and it was like double-sided, single space, and I was like, well, if I was at all on the fence, that would’ve changed my mind because that is a lot of freaking work. I get the research logic, which is like, it takes organization, it takes being proactive, it takes managing all of these different people who have opinions about it, and it takes some presence to maintain your personal brand despite the name change. I think about Sarah Green Carmichael. I’m like, she handled that so well. I already thought of her as a productive, smart, capable person, but yeah, it gives her a little bit more of that to think about how she handles it. Yeah.

HANNAH BATES: Amy, you’re a manager. Nicole. Are you a manager? Do you manage?

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yes, she is a manager.

NICOLE TORRES: I am.

HANNAH BATES: Okay. Well, then I can direct this question to both of you. If any of your employees who are women change their last name or don’t, do you have a reaction or do you look at them differently for whatever decision?

AMY BERNSTEIN: Okay, I just have to say, all I think is please let me remember her name. I hope it’s in Outlook because-

HANNAH BATES: Yeah, that’s fair.

AMY BERNSTEIN: I don’t give it a second thought. It just seems like a very personal decision. What about you, Nicole?

NICOLE TORRES: Yeah, I don’t think you could have a reaction or judge one of your employee’s decisions in that way.

AMY GALLO: You could silently, let’s be fair.

NICOLE TORRES: I know.

AMY GALLO: You both are good managers, so you won’t, but I’m just saying you could have a moment of like-

AMY BERNSTEIN: Oh, and let’s face it, people are judging you all the time.

AMY GALLO: Yes.

NICOLE TORRES: Yeah.

AMY BERNSTEIN: But how can you possibly know what motivates someone to change her name or not?

AMY GALLO: There are very strong, good reasons for a woman to want to be rid of her family name, and I think, again, to judge someone for changing their name without knowing their rationale, their circumstances, which as a manager, you’re not going to know all of that. So, I agree. It’s best not to judge.

NICOLE TORRES: But I also can’t help thinking, so Amy G, when you said, is this something you’ve ever worried about, what a name change might signal, I’d never worried about it until you said that.

AMY GALLO: Glad to put that thought in your head.

NICOLE TORRES: No, I know. I can just imagine the conversation I would have with my coworkers and my boss. I think I personally would feel like I would have to really go out and explain my decision why I changed my name.

AMY BERNSTEIN: But why, Nicole? Why do you have to explain it? What’s wrong with just saying, I got married and now my name is Nicole Jones? What’s wrong with that?

NICOLE TORRES: I think there’d be a lot of questions about like, I thought your generation, like your age, you all aren’t changing your names anymore.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Well, we have research that says otherwise, don’t we?

NICOLE TORRES: So true. So true, but the Pew study that you’re talking about, there are some things that you can identify women as more likely or not to change their name, and it’s really associated with your political leanings, where you live, I think, and what were some of the other ones?

HANNAH BATES: Education.

NICOLE TORRES: Yeah, your education levels, and so I think there are associations with that that might be even subconscious in people’s minds when they hear you’re changing your name, but specifically to what you said, Amy G, it could be a signal that you’re starting a family and there are all kinds of barriers that then get put up. So yeah, I think it would worry me a little bit.

AMY BERNSTEIN: And she thanks you for that.

NICOLE TORRES: Yes, thank you.

AMY GALLO: Glad to help keep you up at night.

NICOLE TORRES: Yeah. But I do wonder on the career front, not to change the direction of the convo, I feel like maybe it makes more of a difference changing your name when you’re thinking about a career where people know your name versus where you might be applying to jobs or changing industries or something. I think there are situations where a new name, you might think of that as helping your brand. A negative way to look at it is, I was reading articles about women who change their names because there’s a lot of name discrimination out there and they find it easier to apply to certain jobs if they have white sounding names.

AMY GALLO: Right. Yeah.

NICOLE TORRES:

And it’s interesting, I learned from the conversation that Hannah had. Who was it who had just learned that in Japan, there’s a law that you have to take-

HANNAH BATES: Sayaka.

NICOLE TORRES: Yeah. Both spouses have to have the same last name or a same name, and they can go either direction. There are a lot of countries too, where there are laws on the books where you cannot change your name after marriage. So, it’s a very cultural and geographic thing as well. In Italy, women don’t change their names, in China, women don’t change their names. So, it is very cultural. It’s kind of interesting to think about how, I don’t know, these conversations might be different depending on where you are.

HANNAH BATES: I’d also love to know in Japan, what percentage of people end up going with the woman’s last name versus the man’s because in my head, I’m like, I bet they’re defaulting to the man’s last name, but I don’t know. I haven’t looked into that.

AMY GALLO: Right. Well, I don’t think my husband, I don’t think it ever occurred to him to change his name to my last name, and it’s surprising to me, actually, that we haven’t gotten to a place where it’s a question that gets asked more regularly.

NICOLE TORRES: A friend who just got married recently, we talk a lot about work and careers, and she’s very career driven and I asked if she was changing her name. She was like, no, and she had told her now husband that she was not changing her name, but she said in the conversation, she said, but you’re welcome to take my name if you’d like, and I thought that was really great. He didn’t, but maybe he thought about it for a little bit and we could have more conversations like that.

HANNAH BATES: I asked Danny, I was like, would you ever take my last name, but even when I ask it, it’s a joke because I know he never would, but he was like, absolutely not. I was like, well, why not? He’s like, because it’s my name and I’m like, exactly.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Exactly. Did he want you to take his name?

HANNAH BATES: He says he doesn’t really care, but I know he does a little bit. He’s like, it’d be nice, but I get it and I’m not heartbroken about it.

AMY GALLO: Damian occasionally gets called Mr. Gallo and he loves it.

NICOLE TORRES: Me too.

AMY GALLO: But he loves it in that it seems funny, and if I got called by his last name, no one would see it as funny.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah.

AMY GALLO: Nicole, what are you getting out of this episode? What should we all be taking from this episode? You set us up to have this conversation. Tell us.

NICOLE TORRES: Oh God. I think I really changed my thinking. I had always thought that I would not change my name, but I would really wonder why my peers, my close friends would change their names. I asked my sister-in-law, why did you change your name, and I’ve just learned a lot more about there are so many reasons why people change their names and they’re all so valid.

AMY GALLO: I’m taking away, you do you. Yeah. Just do it thoughtfully and carefully.

NICOLE TORRES: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

AMY GALLO: That’s our show. I’m Amy Gallo.

AMY BERNSTEIN: And I’m Amy Bernstein.

HANNAH BATES: And I’m Hannah Bates popping back in to say that I learned the percentage of married couples in Japan who take the man’s last name. It’s 95% according to Stanford’s Asia Pacific Research Center. So, in case you were wondering because I was.

AMY GALLO: HBR has more podcasts to help you manage yourself, your team, and your organization. Find them at hbr.org/podcasts or search HBR in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Women at Work’s editorial and production team is Amanda Kersey, Maureen Hoch, Tina Tobey Mack, Rob Eckhardt, Erica Truxler, Ian Fox, and Hannah Bates. Robin Moore composed the scene music.

AMY GALLO: Thanks for listening. Email us anytime at womenatwork@hbr.org. Bye.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Bye.